What engine should I go for?

So I have 3 engine choices. It's for a 2001 Coupe Lancer running 6A12 MIVEC

Choice 1 (this is what the initial plan was and everything has been done but engine isn't assembled yet)
Fully rebuilt, balanced, ported heads, raised CR, extractors, cat, exhaust, ported intake, 5mm oversize TB, piggyback ECU, cam gears
Stock cams
Mated to a DC5R gearbox
Also, a hell of a lot of other cash to spend elsewhere such as stereo, retrim and respray (suspension, brakes, bodykit, wheels, Recaros etc have been done)
Choice 2
Use this engine but use 12.5:1 CR forged CP Pistons, Argo econo rods with ARP2000 bolts, cryo crank, valve springs, port heads more, port heads more, have some cams with peak power around 9500rpm, valve springs, Haltech standalone ECU, twin TB setup or 6 pack TB setup, and other mods as per Choice 1 including DC5R box

Choice 3
http://www.rpw.com.au/shop/index.php...=144&Itemid=40
Pretty much that beast but 6 pack TB setup and some wilder cams than supplied. Note price for that is around 13K + shipping
Standard FTO box remained with cryo gears and replace 1st gear to a much taller gear to make it usable and so that it shifts into MIVEC when upped into 2nd

Choice 4
Try and custom make the engine in Choice 3 and hope it turns out cheaper
Again with the 5speed FTO box

FTO box has a Version R LSD as well

And what do people think my car will do down the track with each engine?
To give you an idea my car with extractors, exhaust, cat and FPR on street tyres would do 14.2 with a 12 year old never rebuilt engine at 1120kg not including driver

choice 2.
mid 13's i'd say.

elighten me though, evo motors, they practically botl straight up?
if so, why not use a evo motor, or you wanna keep it na?

Yeah Evo motor is an easy swap
In fact when I went to drop my car off for the conversion both engines were in front of me and I had to choose choice A or choice B
Unfortunately my idiot dipshit of a friend was a hardcore Honda fan and convinced me of going the MIVEC.
Now, I love NA and I do want a very fast NA car. But more importantly I made this choice and I am sticking by it.


Can I ask, why choice 2?
The 500cc extra would make a huge torque difference. And if you are thinking from a gearbox perspective, a DC5R box can still be bolted I just thought it would be pointless having shorter gears in a car which should be making more power and possibly torque than a 3.0 NSX engine

Also,
I think choice 1 should do mid 13s
Considering the mods, fresh engine and closer gearbox compared to the otherwise standard 14.2
I think choice 2 should be closer to low 13s depending on traction and the 2.5 should be 12s if not 11s on a stripped prepped car with full slicks
Of course I could be wrong and this is speculation only

Edit: I meant Crower Econo rods not Argo

Not being a smart ass, but maybe try asking a Mitsu forum or an Evo forum?
Might have a bit more info for you than a Honda one.

I value the opinions of members here
Also, I don't think Mitsubishi forums would give me a good enough answer. Most people would just say "2.5 MIVEC"

I would toss in a Chevy 350 and twin turbo it, but that's me! As for what you posted I like a little of all. But I haven't done a lot of mitsu's myself so I don't really know what works great in them. Figure out what you want to do all around and see what you have to spend. Then go for what you can get. Doing the internals now would be the best as the bolt ons are easy to install anytime. Just my thoughts.

Yeah not trying to be rude but I do find you asking a lot of Mitsubishi questions on this forum, but do you realise most people here are into Hondas' and probably don't have too much knowledge about mitsus, and even if they do, the lack of interest could mean they wont be bothered answering your questions.

4G63 doesn't fit in your car?

Sorry guys but it is MIVEC and most people here are into NA
Most Mitsi people are into turbo

And yeah 4G63 fits but it's too late

The cheapest solution for me is choice 1 as it's all already done. Just another 2ish K I owe for the gearbox
Then, choice 2 allows me to go further with my engine at a later stage if I want/need to

But choice 3 and 4 I need the cash straight up, but at the same time will offer me huge amounts of power and torque... but the money :(

If you're chasing power, 4G63 or 4G93 is the most obvious answer.
Unless you got money comming out you bumhole and you're trying to prove a point with MIVIC/NA then go for it.

The 6A12 is already in the car guys
I have another one which is being built to replace it but hasn't finished being assembled yet and thinking what course of action I should take with the new motor

spetz id go for whichever is the quickest..

and i dont mean quickest over 400 metres, i mean quickest to get finished and put in your car so it actually runs

reason why i chose, choice 2, beucase it seems to be the best bang for your buck in YOUR situation.
wilder cams and itb's i reckon won't be needed much on your car.
though the gains would be quite good, i don't think it's worth the money.

get some VTEC yO!!!

y dont u put a B16C or B18C engine into it...vtec is preferrably the way to go...!

B16 or B18 wont get me anywhere!
B18 EG's are slower and weight 100+kg less and have a shorter gear ratio box

In fact, and please don't blast me guys, I don't think a K20A would be quicker in my car
But damn :(
Modifying cars is a love hate thing... at the moment it's hate! :(

then put a F20C in...


i think thats the correct engine model...

IF you want to go REALLY fast, boost it. MY mate had a boosted FTO and it went really well till it died from poor engine management.

If you must stick with N/A rallyart should have some interesting bits for your motor although sourcing it out would be a battle.

Yeah HKS also had some interesting stuff for it but you know, when I asked on FTO forums where to find those bits the answer I got was to go to Japan and ask around...

How hard did the FTO go and how was traction?
I wouldn't boost this motor but lightly considering 4G63

dont bother with ralliart stuff.
RPW in Perth has plenty of experience and would be far better and cheaper place to source parts from.
and an F20C?................. great idea if his car was RWD :rolleyes:
i reckon stick with the engine you're working on. seeing as its a spare theres no real rush and you might as well maintain some pedigree lol.

if it was me id go k20 all the way. even boost it if u want.

VTEC!!!!! that is all.

Actually besides the larger aftermarket, I don't think a K20A would really make my car go quicker
And when it comes down to boost, how can I choose a K over a Evo motor :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

Yeah HKS also had some interesting stuff for it but you know, when I asked on FTO forums where to find those bits the answer I got was to go to Japan and ask around...

How hard did the FTO go and how was traction?
I wouldn't boost this motor but lightly considering 4G63

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RPM performance in SA make the FTO kits which should apply to your as well.

The FTO made 170kws@wheels on 7psi with GT28R
The 4G63 would be the gun motor in the lancer... but youd propably be better off selling your car as is then buying another lancer to do the 4g63 conversion, afterall somone paid big bucks to get that 6a12 fitted in a lancer and that way youd get a good portion back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

Sorry guys but it is MIVEC and most people here are into NA
Most Mitsi people are into turbo

And yeah 4G63 fits but it's too late

The cheapest solution for me is choice 1 as it's all already done. Just another 2ish K I owe for the gearbox
Then, choice 2 allows me to go further with my engine at a later stage if I want/need to

But choice 3 and 4 I need the cash straight up, but at the same time will offer me huge amounts of power and torque... but the money :(

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the most powerful, and cheepest also the smartest option would be to sell ur current engine, and use the 4g63. Im sure others would of said this, but i havnt read ur hole thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

The 6A12 is already in the car guys
I have another one which is being built to replace it but hasn't finished being assembled yet and thinking what course of action I should take with the new motor

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ur building a new engine to replace ur current one???? um u not just save ur cash and go 4g63

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzz

the most powerful, and cheepest also the smartest option would be to sell ur current engine, and use the 4g63. Im sure others would of said this, but i havnt read ur hole thread.

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ive read ur hole thread and i cant believe this hasnt been mentioned:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

Yeah Evo motor is an easy swap
In fact when I went to drop my car off for the conversion both engines were in front of me and I had to choose choice A or choice B
Unfortunately my idiot dipshit of a friend was a hardcore Honda fan and convinced me of going the MIVEC.

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u seem like a smart guy to me, why let dipshit friends make ur choices:confused: , ur plenty capable of making them urself!.
i cant belive u were talked into NA over going fast, and i cant believe u went to find an engine without knowing exactly what u wanted for ur car! Sorry.

seriously, ull save lots of money selling ur current engine (or engines?? u got another getting built right??) and geting the 4g63.

Thing is ull probly still be just as fast if not faster, as spending shitloads more to build ur current engine + tuning etc. not to mention ull be more reliable having an oem engine. Mod for mod ull get way more out of the 4g63!

if ur after NA thats cool, but if ur wanting to go as fast as u can for ur money, stop what ur doing straight away, sell off ur engine/s, go 4g63!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

Note price for that is around 13K + shipping

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if u can spare that much, ud get way way way way...... more out of going with a 4g63, way way way way more, but yeah u wont be NA, if thats important. Did i mention ul get way way way more!

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Originally Posted by spetz

And what do people think my car will do down the track with each engine?

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i dont think any of those extremly expensive/labour intensive options, would be any faster than doing a simple conversion to a 4g63! not to mention u could do a few decent mods on top of the 4g63 for the price, ud be spending to do those options!

STOCK, I was the one who paid big bucks to put it in :(
And do you know how much the turbo kit from SA is?

Muzz, I can't really blame my friend for the decision, it was after all my own decision in the end. At the time I though low 14s and with some mods low 13s would be plenty fast for me. Also, I thought that while a 4G63 Lancer would be wheelspinning I'd be able to leap forward (ie, realistically be quicker on the street)
Anyway, turns out 14s, and even 13s got tiresome to me.

At this stage though I did fall in love with NA, and as much as I love boost I love being asked how much boost I run when I beat your generic turbo car, and the thing I love most is watching their faces when I tell them there is no boost
Also at this stage because there aren't any quick NA lancer's out there, I want to take claim of being the fastest

The other cons of having a 4G63:
Not as smooth
Not as rev happy
Thrashed engine from a written off car Vs completely rebuilt, good as new motor
Tyre expenses :)

Pros:
Monster loads of torque

Oh, and the V6 sounds UNBELIEVABLE at 8000rpm!! Like an F1 motor!

Oh, forgot to mentioned
Another BIG pro of doing the 4G63 is that I can AWD the car down the track for about 12K or so. That'll include the whole AYC system too :)

But... I can't be stuffed doing another engine conversion. Getting the bugs out of a job like that is the hugest and most expensive headache ever!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

At this stage though I did fall in love with NA, and as much as I love boost I love being asked how much boost I run when I beat your generic turbo car, and the thing I love most is watching their faces when I tell them there is no boost
Also at this stage because there aren't any quick NA lancer's out there, I want to take claim of being the fastest

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Yeah fair enough mate, i understand where ur comin from:thumbsup:
do u mind me askin how u pay for all this stuff as a uni student??? u dont have to if u dont want!
Im at uni and ive been savin for coilovers for about 3 months, and ive Got $200 dollars so far lol:thumbdwn: keep getting bills for rego, insurance etc, and payin off my car loan. And its not like i go out wastin money and stuff, im a stinge:(

fwd lancers always have a hard time coping with big power, their wheel hopping problem is worse than honda and making the car half useless.

It's not that bad.
My mate with a 4G93 equiped CC lancer pulled a 13.8 down the 1/4. The clown was wheel spinning 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 15" rims with tyres from when the car was carby -_-;. Obviously if he put more thought into suspension setup and tyre choice, he would have produced better results but you know how some people are. It's all about the power and torque steer =\

How smooth it's going to be will be determained by who tunes it and how well they do it.
If you're focused on building a N/A motor then so be it but that's not where the power is at.
The sky's the limit with a 4G63, limitless tuning options with off the shelf parts.
But good luck anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nigs

If you're focused on building a N/A motor then so be it but that's not where the power is at.
The sky's the limit with a 4G63, limitless tuning options with off the shelf parts.
But good luck anyway.

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:thumbsup: :zip:

Muzz... hopefully people don't think I'm a wanker but my parents paid for all the mods and bought me the car brand new too when I got my P's
However the reason why I'm doing more mods to it now is that I got a job while not at uni (holidays) so now I have quite a lot more cash to spend on it. Which is also where another problem arises. I don't want to set out on a $10,000 mission, only to find out that I'm not able to save this much up by the time uni starts again. Then I'd be stuck :(

xtercii, I noticed that Honda's have way way way worse wheel hop? My lancer doesn't really wheel hop that much actually. Though what I did notice is my traction seems to be fairly poor. Unsure why. I thought maybe engine rotation?? Regardless I just overhauled everything in the suspension so shouldn't wheel hop too much. Just hoping I can take off from a standstill

4G63 is definately one hell of a motor but that means a whole new engine conversion, and Evo front cuts are very expensive

Four Gee Nine Free!!

so spetz are u closer to making a decision on your plans now?

id say do it in stages, starting with the head. Do PnP, cams, valves and springs, cam gears, valve grind, ecu+tuning, intake and throttle body.

This alone will set u back around $5000+ in parts and labour! at least this way u do not need to remove the block from ur car yet, and ur not f^%ked, if u cant afford to complete doing all the work at once.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

4G63 is definately one hell of a motor but that means a whole new engine conversion, and Evo front cuts are very expensive

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Belive me the path ur going allong will end up being so much more expensive than a 4g63 conversion. You really need to sit down and plan out EXACTLY what parts ull need, and what labour ur gunna need done.

The 4g63, ull need the fromt cut - lets say $8000 (i got no idea), labour to remove ur current engine, labour to do conversion, get it engineered, say $4000 thats it. No tuning cus ud use the stock ecu. lets guess $12000 all up (again no idea)

working ur current engine - say choice 2 (these price estimates are completly rough, iv only got a slight idea, im not an engine person at this stage, only interested chassis/suspension)

Remove current engine & dissasembe engine - $500
high comp pistons - $1200
rods - $600
bolts - $200
cryo treat crank - $200
Port heads - $1000 porting is dam expensive
cams - $1000 minimum
valve springs $500
ecu $1200-$1900
tuning $500
dc5r box - $1500 (really bad idea, get a gear set made for you box)
engineering for box + labor to mount box -$1500
custom axels $700 - $900
6 pack throttle body $3000-$6000+ very very expensive
Labor to reassemble - $400
Labour to reinstall engine - $300
cat back exhaust- $1000
headers - $650
intake - $300
oir cooler - $400
clutch - $600
water & oil pumps if needed etc.
injectors - $400?
timing belt - $?

your looking at $16,000-$20000+ dollars, and im sure theres plenty of things that needs to be added to the list. this is somthing u dont rush into. make a list of exactly what parts your going to need, and the cost+shipping, right down to the nitty gritty like bearings bolts etc etc. Then exactly what labour processes are going to need to be undertaken to go from having ur engine in ur bay, to having this built engine tuned and ready to run, then go the the place ur getting this done, and get them to look. This is where u need to stop and Plan, spend a good few months planning, exactly what you want from this set up, exactly what iys gunna be used for, i cant stress this enough.

Im not picking on you or anything man, its just that id hate to see u rush into this without any idea of the costs and problems ur gunna run into, time its gunna take to do etc, and with no plan on what u actually want from ur car. Will this be a street car?, drag car? are you using it for circuit? how streetable will this engine be? how long will an engine like thiss last, before the next rebuild. These are the sorts of things u need to be asking. Create an account with honda-tech and spend lots of time in the all motor section. What if u spend 20gs and dont get what u were hoping for. is it worth all the money when u could just go turbo and get way more power in the long run? Would u be better off selling ur car and using this $16000-20000 for your engine, to buy that evo u wanted? how long do u plan to keep the car etc. what happens if ur engine blows? what will you do? thnik about the reliability issues with stock 4g63 vs fully built motor. call up insurance companys and see what is gunna cost for a person ur age to have all these mods on your car. Please have a think to yourself about these things spetz buddy.

ayways if u really wanna go this route, consider just completly working the head these holidays, and getiing an ecu to tune ur changes. Dont even touch the block yet. Maby look around for a short ratio gear set for ur gear box.

yeah good post muzz. u make some good honest points. reliability is the key indeed.

sell the car, save ur money. buy an evo. mid 20's will get u a stock evo 4. nice car and a reliable platform to build from. better resale than a lancer with the FTO motor etc as well, less hassle now, car that actually drives...

convinced yet?

But that defeats the whole purpose of modifying a car, doing a conversion, enjoying the process, becoming unique. And who gives a shit about resale value and saving money when you are playing with your passion.

You don’t get your money back when you buy a phone, or any electrical appliances, when you spend thousands of dollars on a trip, you waste all the money, and you can’t get a single cent back. At least done up cars you can get some money back.

thats right, you shouldn't be modifying cars if your thinking about re-sell value. If you have to justifly every mod your car you also shouldn't be doing it. You should be doing it if you enjoy it. pretty plain and simple.

As many have said - "you have to pay to play".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xtercii

But that defeats the whole purpose of modifying a car, doing a conversion, enjoying the process, becoming unique. And who gives a shit about resale value and saving money when you are playing with your passion.

You don’t get your money back when you buy a phone, or any electrical appliances, when you spend thousands of dollars on a trip, you waste all the money, and you can’t get a single cent back. At least done up cars you can get some money back.

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:thumbsup: i totally agree.

i hope u dont think i was advising him to sell his car for an evo, a stock evo is hardly anything special. The point to my post was so he understands now what the cost will likly be to follow his plans. Better now then after hes spent $10000 and is nowhere near having done what he is planning to do. Nor was i advising him not to go down the highly strung NA route, id luv to see the results when he has finished.

I just want him to think about his plans and goals, and understand whats involved (reliability/insurance/drivability issues etc.), so he can be sure of himself, and the choice he makes. It would be a pity to see him spend 10k only to realise then, that going with the 4g63 would of been a better choice to get what he is looking for in his car. Its easy to rush into things, not so easy to go back. It would also be a pity to see him pull his engine and strip it down, only then to realise that his 10k wont cover his plans and have to put it all back together, without completing much of what was planned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

So I have 3 engine choices. It's for a 2001 Coupe Lancer running 6A12 MIVEC

Choice 1 (this is what the initial plan was and everything has been done but engine isn't assembled yet)
Fully rebuilt, balanced, ported heads, raised CR, extractors, cat, exhaust, ported intake, 5mm oversize TB, piggyback ECU, cam gears
Stock cams
Mated to a DC5R gearbox
Also, a hell of a lot of other cash to spend elsewhere such as stereo, retrim and respray (suspension, brakes, bodykit, wheels, Recaros etc have been done)
Choice 2
Use this engine but use 12.5:1 CR forged CP Pistons, Argo econo rods with ARP2000 bolts, cryo crank, valve springs, port heads more, port heads more, have some cams with peak power around 9500rpm, valve springs, Haltech standalone ECU, twin TB setup or 6 pack TB setup, and other mods as per Choice 1 including DC5R box

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may i suggest a new option #5- leave the block
Cams
Springs valves and retainers
Valve grind
Port n polish
cam gears
Ecu + tuning
injectors, if there needed
And finally, instead of going with the cryo'd crank, forged pistons, and rods (which is overkill if your staying NA), Up the compression ratio by milling the head or block (not sure which) or using a thiner head gasket. (i dont know all that much about engines, so if anyone there knows of any cons to upping the CP in any of these ways, please speek up. Also gotta make shur the pistons wont come in contact with the valves).

Doing this will save u a shit load of money!
save $$ in labor of removing and replacing the block from the car, save dollars ripping apart block, installing parts & rebuilding block, save $$ in buying forged pistons, rods and treating the crank, big time!

with all this done, u can just upgrage ur externals later on, intake, exhaust, throttle bodys gearbox etc.

i just want him to get a car up and running

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qstoria

i just want him to get a car up and running

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yeah thats the main priority hey, but even the best builds have lots of downtime;)

tell me about it!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzz

And finally, instead of going with the cryo'd crank, forged pistons, and rods (which is overkill if your staying NA), Up the compression ratio by milling the head or block (not sure which) or using a thiner head gasket.

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Silly me, i take it u wanna do the bottom end aswell so u can raise the rev limit above what stock internals can handle. Maby just do all the head work and ecu these holidays (if u got cash left over do bolt ons like exhaust and intake stuff), then wait till next years holidays before u crack open the block?

i think it'd be better to just do the whole build (head and bottom end) at once rather than doing one before the other.
presumably you'll be building the head based upon the specs of the built bottom end and vice versa. if you build the head first but leave the bottom end stock you'll driving around with an engine thats aeffectively mismatched and not exactly running spot on.
imho you'd be better off waiting until you can defanitly afford to do both and do it all at once, that way you'll more likely achieve a better build through a (assuming) well matched combination of parts and you'll also save money not having to pull the thing apart twice.
anyway, i thought this was a spare engine so really wont be run until finished anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sivic

i thought this was a spare engine so really wont be run until finished anyway?

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Ahh yeah, i keep forgetting about that.

isnt this a honda forum??

Honda & Mitsu merged, the news was announced 9am this morning.

i think u shld try choice 4 - that is mitsubishi or mivec forum rofl....

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Originally Posted by qstoria

i just want him to get a car up and running

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You just want to find out the MIVEC Vs VTEC thing when you get your K20A ;)
You know MIVEC is the boss :)


Muzz, I have a 6A12 in my car now, and another 6A12 in a workshop in pieces.
I would rather do bottom end now before doing top end. The heads have been ported and polished already BTW
The reason I want to do bottom end, is that I will get valve springs as well, and that means when I do cam swap heads don't come off etc
And, most importantly, cams are about $1800 for my engine :eek:
So, I want to make sure I have the bottom end to go with some fairly wild cams. Basically, I see my bottom end as the foundation of the motor. The better I build it now (while it is apart anyway) the more crazy I can go later.

However, at the same time what I would hate is to spend 3-4K reinforcing the bottom end with plans to do cams, intake etc and end up not doing any of this (basically, have forged internals when the stock ones would do just as good a job)

I am in the process of trying to get the RPW 2.5
If someone buys my rebuilt MIVEC motor then I might go for the 2.5
It will run stock cams etc, but will make it more affordable and I can upgrade cams later. Also saves me a few grand in not needing to put the DC5R box into my car as the 2.5 will have plenty torque with just a 5 speed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spetz

You just want to find out the MIVEC Vs VTEC thing when you get your K20A ;)
You know MIVEC is the boss :)

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should be interesting to see how they go. thats if we ever get our cars back :p

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Originally Posted by qstoria

should be interesting to see how they go. :p

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wont be very fair running a built 6A12 against a stock K20A though will it? :p

crack open the K20 and then see how it goes :D

either way, keen to see the end result of this car

k20 has jdm internals, 2.5' exhust and aftermarket header also it is in a 89 crx so its a fair bit lighter

so i think it will have alot to do with driving ablity

ooohhh sounds like some good competition! cant wait to see the results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzz

ooohhh sounds like some good competition! cant wait to see the results.

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:wave: mivec

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Originally Posted by qstoria

:wave: mivec

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hehe, yeah my moneys on the k20 crx, but im biased of course!

yeah im going to have to go with the crx but i have seen what that mivec rubbish can do and it was pretty impressive with minamal mods

just way to heavy to compete i think

Not to mention that if I do not do internals both cars will be running near identical mods
Not only that, I am trying to put the DC5R gearbox in the car so identical engine mods + identical gearing
Then, we were going to get both cars weighed and even out the weight.
ie, mine will be heavier, if it's 100kg heavier we were gonna put 100kg into the CRX
That way we have
2L MIVEC Vs 2L VTEC same mods, same weight, same gearing
13 year old Mitsubishi variable cam timing/lift technology from the 1900's Vs current 21st century Honda technology.

You Honda boys better hope qstoria whoops my ass


Anywa Bal and qstoria, the Lancer got defected and I lost the engineers report for it :(
So it is unregistered and just sitting now, will only get it registered with the new engine as I'll need a new engineers report with that and go through the pits

Bal you homo i don't even need MIVEC to beat your B16A crap
And I'm carrying 120kg more + longer ratios + old engine and yours is fully rebuilt!

But yeah as far as outright performance i am certain the CRX will be much quicker but once we even out the weight I think no one can really tell.
Mario's MIVEC made 132kw at the front wheels with next to no mods!