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Hi guys. Here are some pics of the new whiteline sway bar for ek civics. It has a new reinforced bar (similar to the ASR brace) and I must say that it does the job.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4...83xz20bip9.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4...83xz14afg5.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9...83xz12blo1.jpg
A few questions:
- How thick is the piece of metal?
- Got any better pics of how the bar attaches to the reinforcement piece?
- Are they still using the standard mounting bolts that they have in the past?
Did they redo the EG rear swaybar aswell or was it just for the EK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdster
Okie dokie, to answer your questions:
1. I will measure the exact thickness of the metal and I will get back to you.
2. These are the only photos that I have. I can increase their size for you if it helps.
3. From what Wojtek told me, they are now using different bolts. In terms of tensile strength, I'm not sure of what grade they are, but ur best of asking Wojtek that directly.
I'll update the photos after work this evening and measure the thickness of the metal when I get my car back today. As a comparison, do you know what the thickness of the ASR brace is?
slightly better.. getting there.. not there yet
From what I know, they just revised the ek's rear sway bar due to some complaints they received regarding subframe tearing/damage. Don't hold me to that though...it might be best that you contact whiteline.Quote:
Originally Posted by An41
For the time being I'll just monitor how it goes...I'll keep a close eye on it and check for any cracks or damage on the subframe of the car. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitZ
Not sure, but from the pics, it would appear thicker than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by spacepants_fb
It is hard to see from the pictures, but do the c clamp bolts go through just the reinforcement plate/bar or is there something else behind it?
Hey Zdster, they just go through the metal plate by the looks of things. And how much thicker is the ASR brace? I heard Ben say that it was thinner than the ASR brace...but I'm really curious as to how much thicker it is. You might be able to see it better when I enlarge the pics.
is there anything to stop bolt plucking on the other side of the subframe(where the bolts go through the LCA support ie standard sway bar area)
how much has this added to the price of the whiteline kit?
it looks too be solid steel whilst ASR is alloyQuote:
Originally Posted by spacepants_fb
It IS slightly thinner than the ASR braceQuote:
Originally Posted by BlitZ
And It IS made of solid steel as opposed to the alloy ASR.
IT looks impressive but it is the prototype...
IT has a slightly thicker bar in the middle acting as a tiebar.
It dosent have any rear reinforcement (like ASR or beaks etc) which is THE weakpoint.
I hope whiteline addresses this asap... perhaps a solid link with 2 holes at the rear will be good
Thank you Mr Ben la! :thumbsup:
Just realised that there's a typo in the title. Can the mod's fix please? (whiteline vs whitline)
yep a solid block behind the rear would be perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
i might even look into upgrading to the new brace depending on price/compatibility with what i have now.
G'day everyone,
Thank you for your feedback on the prototype new swaybar kit. We're comfortable with the design as it stands now but will take a look at some of the suggestions made and come back to you.
In the meantime, we wanted to explain the reasoning behind this particular design to help understand our position;
- In our view, one for the major reasons behind failure of our previous design was not re-torquing of mounting hardware as indicated in the instructions. We are not trying to wash our hands of the problem but we can't ignore the fact that our own R & D test car did not have any problem after many hard kilometres on and off the track. However, we did have experience with a customers car that was showing signs of metal fatigue and had not been re-torqued. This is not a "splitting hairs" issue as any design that works around laminating or bolting to existing pressed metal must be re-torqued. The instructions for the new design make an even greater point of this and we also provide torque settings.
- We looked at other designs in the market and tried to combine the strengths of other peoples experience with our own. We found that there was no single brace/mount hybrid that also laminated the OE sheet metal at the mount point. Our research also showed that a popular laminating design did not use a single piece brace/mount like ours. Other designs also modify the pickup points, swaybar needed and resulting geometry. This is something we wanted to avoid. Our view is that the single piece aspect is more important and the load distributing washers used coupled with the control arm pickup mounting and the use of Grade 12 and 8 bolts is more than adequate.
- The mounting kit however also had to meet certain cost targets to keep the price affordable which instantly ruled out the use of alloys. The relatively lightweight steel brace design with twist beam box centre is strong yet light. This design also importantly maintains all original OEM mounting and pickup points meaning the brace alone can be used with other swaybars including OEM while also ensuring that the swaybar geometry, motion ratio, angular change and performance are not compromised.
No, it is not like anyone else's design but we are confident that it will do the job as good or better than any other design as long as it is correctly fitted.
Happy to answer any further questions you may have.
Cheers
Jim Gurieff
Whiteline Automotive
Interesting response Jim.
Can you please explain this point a little bit more?
What exactly do you mean by the term 'laminated'? Any point where the brace meets the OEM metal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteline
G'day Zdster,
I guess you could also refer to it as "sandwiching" between materials. We're referring to laminating or sandwiching the OEM metal cross member between new component parts.
Our brace attach's to the rear of the cross-member (as seen from the rear) via tubes and hardware using existing holes and the control arm inner locating point. We supply washers for the bolts that mount to the cross-member though the control arm pivot bolts and single brace design do most of the work.
The only aftermarket design that we found that actually laminated the OE sheet metal between 2 new pieces of metal does not use a single brace/mount assembly but rather 2x separate mounts.
Hope that clarifies it.
Best
Jim
Whiteline
ok i have a few questions regarding price.
1. how much is this total kit (sway + brace)
2. how much is the brace alone (for people already with a sway)
3. will this fit other swaybars such as those of EK9 ?
It doesn't matter if it is thicker than the ASR or not. It depends on the material it is made with and the shape/cross section of the plate. Failure does not always occur in the plane in which the load/torque/moment is applied.
failure seems to apply to the weakest point in a plane - this place seems to be the swaybar mount to the subframe.Quote:
Originally Posted by revNhevN
Therefore the mount itself , and the space behind it must take more / most load. By dispersing the load across a larger area ( IE ASR / new whiteline) and also needs some sort of anti-plucking reinforcement behind the swaybar mounting. The ASR kit and Beaks kit utilise this - they link the 2 mount bolts with a single larger piece of metal. Helps !
i already got a whiteline rear sway bar,so do i jus buy the brace or i hv to buy the whole kit again. cheers
what is going to happen to customers that alraedy has teh sway?
r they able to get it done free of charge? or at a cheaper price?
G'day,
bennjamin,
While there is a small horizontal vector acting on the swaybar chassis pivot point, which is then transferred through the mounting bracket onto the chassis, by-far the major force is in the vertical plane which is distributed by both M10 Gr12.8 control arm pivot bolts and four M8 Gr8.8 chassis mounting bolts.
In our view and experience, the magnitude of the horizontal force is within the strength of the chassis mounting face, as have not seen M8 bolts with large backing washers to 'pluck' out of the chassis even with our two piece bracket design - provided bushes are properly lubricated with minimal rotational resistance increasing torque effect on the bracket and all fasteners are correctly torqued up at all times - so I certainly cannot see this happening with our new single bracket design.
Again, we are happy with our new single piece bracket design, and while there may be some merit to having some form of lamination, this really applies to two seperate piece bracket designs where there is no load sharing and re-distribution onto both sides of the chassis.
ccibai and |N|,
We have deliberately maintained all original chassis mounting points and swaybar pivot mounts (in all three x, y and z planes) as for OEM swaybar and bracket, so that the single piece bracket alone can be installed and used with all our immediately previous design swaybars as well as OEM swaybars or other direct replacement bars.
As always, thank you for your feedback and suggestions, and happy to answer any questions.
Cheers,
Wojtek
Whiteline Automotive.
Hey whiteline.
do you have any rough price on this project whether its with the swaybar + brace or just the brace itself ?
thanks
All the latest products are already updated in our Online Parts Catalogue. Go to Whiteline and in the top right hand corner select your car make, etc.....Quote:
Originally Posted by EK4R
Cheers,
Wojtek.
wil you be adopting something similar to the EG/DC range of reinforcement kits ? Also redesigning the bar to follow the OEM route ?
( LOTS of issues with clearance , on lower control arms and after market piping etc.)
so it is the brace-lower control arm KSB709? yeah gonna go n get 1 asap.
bennjamin,
Our current EG/DC two piece bracket kit is also a direct replacement for the original brackets, with all mounting points and swaybar pivots points being the same as for the original brackets and swaybar.
On the EG/DC model, the swaybar pivot points are directly above the control arm bolt, so there is no torque being generated from the D-bush onto the control arm bolt which would try to rotate the bracket. So, the bottom line is that in my view a single piece bracket is not as critical on the EG/DC chassis as it is on the EK, and I am not personnally aware of any failuires with our EG/DC kits. But, we will be very happy to discuss and consider it.
ccibai,
KSB709 is a control arm/chassis bracket brace. It was designed as an additional component for our now no-longer-available previous two piece brackets. It will not fit and more to the point it is not required with our new single piece bracket kit.
Cheers,
Wojtek.
Ok, thanks for the info. So which part number for the subframe brace m i looking at if i alreayd hv a 22mm adj whiteline sway bar? cheers
As far as I am aware, there have been some failures. Pretty sure Ben will be able to address that point though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteline
Edit: See here - http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...whiteline+sway
Im surprised to see tubes mounting the plate to the subframe like with their old mounts. I would of thought that they would use a solid lump of metal that all the bolts go through like ASR, so forces are spread more evenly between all bolts.:confused: eg: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m...zz1987/yzx.jpg
Hopefuley those tubes are welded to the plate, and not just spacers for the bolts to go through! It seems they may be from the pic, it looks like 2 different types of metals.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9...83xz12blo1.jpg
thats what i said before lol !Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzz
The entire force is applied to only 2 or 3 small areas directly on the reinforcement mounting holes - which is the area where it "plucks" out.
Refer to Zdster's link above - it has happened on a few EG/DC's too , mine included.
^^Even if it is welded on, you still face the risk of the entire section being pulled forward as Ben has said. It is only really attached to the subframe by those few points it would seem.
G'day Everyone,
In order to address some concerns raised, I think it is worth reviewing the problem by pointing out that there are 2 main types if failures surrounding the rear swaybar for this chassis.
Failure type #1 - plucking of the M8 bolts out of the chassis. We have seen this to happen on cars using original chassis brackets only. We have addressed this with our original two-piece bracket design by spreading the load over a larger area, and incorporating the control arm bolt to further strengthen the bracket. We are not aware of any failures of this type with our chassis brackets.
Failure type #2 – tearing of rear sub-frame out from the floor pan. We are of the opinion that although our two-piece bracket design may not have been full proof, it was certainly capable of doing its job as intended, as evidenced by our project car and most customers’ cars working just fine, with only a very small number of people reporting problems. However, as already mentioned by Jim, one of the main reasons for these problems was not-torquing of mounting hardware which is very critical for this installation.
As the main force acting on the bracket is in the vertical plane, the spacer tubes or solid blocks working in compression make little difference to the integrity of the bracket or its mounting strength onto the chassis. If the major force would be in the horizontal plane, then these would be more critical. However, that is not the case, and the tubes/solid brocks are simply there to position the bracket away off the chassis.
We have again very carefully reviewed our design, and considered your feedback and suggestions, and we replace the already large washers that are used behind the M8 bolts inside the chassis/subframe, with a single backing plate with 2 holes to further spread the load over a larger area. The tubes used are heavy wall, so there is a large contact area to spread the load over. IF this would be a problem, then the tubes would either bend/break, or they would push the chassis mounting face in, and we have never seen this happen, and can’t see it happening.
With the help of ozhonda forum, we have tried to improve our product to make it both stronger to reduce the likelihood of any chassis failures as a result of possible installation shortfalls – although this is still very critical and should not be ignored – as well as maintain a competitive and affordable cost for everyone to enjoy its benefits. I like to believe that we have delivered both.
Happy to answer any questions.
Regards,
Wojtek.
i do agree this is a contributing factor to a few "failures" or loud noises arising from swaybar setups... small things like not using enough grease on the bushes or over tightening bolt/s etc can prematurely wear the kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteline
Its good that Whiteline has improved the install instructions (from 2 pictures of the finished thing back in the day lol! ) to a more in depth guide.
All things considered - i strongly think the whiteline design will be better with a rear plate to spread the load - 2 other kits (beaks and ASR ) use this same kit , and i have never heard of subframe tearout with these designs.
http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/2/ASR.jpg
the frontal plate can be any shape or design or material , but the "plucking" force is placed onto 4 small holes on the subframe. With a backing plate there , it gives a larger area for support IMO :)
thoughts ?
Hi Whiteline,
I got a Whiteline adj rear bar, along with the rear subframe reo kit, front and rear strut braces fitted about 9 mths ago by the highly regarded Wilkinson Suspension in Perth.
Could you advise me where I stand with regards to my current setup? ie is there a newer/improved version out there currently? Pls find images attached.
Ever since I had the kit fitted there has always been noises ( tock, bang ) whenever I corner hard, esp on hard 90 deg left hand turns ( may be to do with the LH rear wheel off the ground and spring unseated as well? ). I thought the noises would go away as the bushes settle in but they haven't.
I must stress that your products have totally transformed the way my car handled and I haven't experienced any handling problems associated with the noises, so merely an annoyance.
Should I 1st check the tightness of all the bolts 1st? If so what are the recommended torque settings? Pls advise.
Thanks.
http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/8...4586ud6.th.jpg
http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/2...4587vn0.th.jpg
EG30 - much of the noise is associated by the heavy duty bushes. Either not enough lube or over tightening will make them "snap" and "crack" under pivoting angles and hard cornering etc.
I know since i had a whiteline kit too and the noise was sometimes scary but no problems what so ever.
Thanks for the info bennjamin, will try to lube the bushes myself at some stage. The noises are scary alright esp to passengers, not only do they have to endure the cornering forces they didn't think my car is capable of but also those loud bangs....
hey matie..
you have overtighten it
you see in this pic http://img464.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img4587vn0.jpg
the D mount was not designed to sit flush (God knows why whiteline used such a mount).. PM whiteline to confirm, but im 99% sure as i was told specifically not to tighten it til its flush by whiteline when i got the brace in my haydays
Quote:
Originally Posted by EG30
thanks for the advice blitz.
you meant the 'U' clamp over the yellow sway bar D bushes being overtightened? What do you mean by flush? ie flush against which bit?
yeah i meant the U Clamp... you see how the clamp looks like -u-Quote:
Originally Posted by EG30
The end - tabs arent meant to be flugh against the reinforcement..
:thumbsup:
....and no where does it say to do this ( in the instructions etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitZ
i was told by wojtek at whiteline.... its best to send them a PM ... they could have changed different saddle brackets because i was one of the first to run the kits after the reinfrocements were madeQuote:
Originally Posted by bennjamin
ok I'll try and back the U clamp nuts off a bit and see if the noises improve
G’day,
EG30 - As you are probably aware by now, it is possible that dry or over-tightened bushes can generate some noises, which may sound like cracking due to the fact that a polyurethane bush acts as a plain bearing. It is therefore important that the bush is well lubricated and not over-tightened. In the case of your swaybar mounting arrangement, it is quite easy just to keep tightening the U-bolt nuts too much, so it must be done with some care.
Before you do anything else, I suggest that you disconnect the endlinks, and rotate the swaybar up and down. If the noise is still there, then it’s probably your bushes. If that’s the case, proceed with the removal, clean all surfaces and re-lubricate bushes and re-install making sure not to over-tighten the assembly. If you find that the saddle is some way off the bracket, you may like to pack some washers between the saddle and the bracket to give you a more positive stop.
bennjamin - We do not mention this in the fitting instructions, as it is just one of those things that require some mechanical knowledge and dare I say common sense.
Hope that this helps.
If it’s still a problem, please feel free to contact us direct.
Regards,
Wojtek.
Whiteline Automotive.
I've seen also alot of people putting the stupid thing upside down.
I have to say that the bar itself is very good quality, but i have noted that the bolts supplied seem to be of lower quality, and there were not enough washers supplied. Mine also seem to be missing 2 bolts for the endlink which i ended up using some chassis bolts i had. I have the 18mm to 22mm adjustable, and its the first generation
I have reinstalled my bar 3 times.
The first time it made alot of noise, even though i used extra lithium grease to lube all parts. I also installed a strut brace over the main bolt. I did not that the main bolt could be better and easier to install if there was a tip on the bolt like the OEM product.
To fix this i installed more washers, spring washers and larger flat washers for the endlinks as the bushes were warping. Again i applied lots of lithum grease. It was good for a couple of months and then the noise came back.
Third, i got an ASR kit to strengthen the swaybar, and it has been great since. No noise and you can feel the stiffness in the rear end when cornering hard. The quality of the ASR is extremely good compared to the bolts and brackets of whiteline.
Now i've seen the new kit on another car on the hoist and it does seem better, but on this particular car i could see that the raised piping for the brackets were bending. The end brackets still do not have the strength of the ASR rear support.
Overall the swaybars are excellent, but the rear supporting brackets need more work and better quality parts. I guess it is partly Honda's fault in not making stronger sub-frames, but i think whiteline needs to look at the quality of its products.
P.S i still run my whiteline swaybar on the ASR kit, and its been perfect ever since
Thanks Wojtek for the info, will try that 1st and let you know how I go via PM.
pics limbo?
Hi Limbo,
Thanks for your comments.
Yes indeed, but I guess it is not difficult to confuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limbo
thank youQuote:
I have to say that the bar itself is very good quality,
that may have been the case some time ago, so it seems that we are stuck with this legacy. For the record, we now use high quality high tensile bolts, minimum Gr8.8, and up to Gr12.8 for the lower control arm bolts.Quote:
but i have noted that the bolts supplied seem to be of lower quality
I'm sorry to hear that. We are still humans, and unfortunately some mistakes may happen. However, there has been a lot of effort made with many system checks put in place to improve this area, with high improvements noted.Quote:
,and there were not enough washers supplied. Mine also seem to be missing 2 bolts for the endlink which i ended up using some chassis bolts i had. I have the 18mm to 22mm adjustable, and its the first generation
Again, we use minimum Gr8.8 and up to gr12.8 bolts in critical points.Quote:
I have reinstalled my bar 3 times.
The first time it made alot of noise, even though i used extra lithium grease to lube all parts. I also installed a strut brace over the main bolt. I did not that the main bolt could be better and easier to install if there was a tip on the bolt like the OEM product.
To fix this i installed more washers, spring washers and larger flat washers for the endlinks as the bushes were warping. Again i applied lots of lithum grease. It was good for a couple of months and then the noise came back.
Third, i got an ASR kit to strengthen the swaybar, and it has been great since. No noise and you can feel the stiffness in the rear end when cornering hard. The quality of the ASR is extremely good compared to the bolts and brackets of whiteline.
I'm not sure I understand this correctly. ???Quote:
Now i've seen the new kit on another car on the hoist and it does seem better, but on this particular car i could see that the raised piping for the brackets were bending.
I believe that we have addressed and improved the quality, function and performance by changing over to single piece bracket with central reinforcement, using high tensile grade bolts and hardware, reinforcement plates. We've also improved other facets including production and assembly quality and fitting instructions.Quote:
The end brackets still do not have the strength of the ASR rear support.
Overall the swaybars are excellent, but the rear supporting brackets need more work and better quality parts. I guess it is partly Honda's fault in not making stronger sub-frames, but i think whiteline needs to look at the quality of its products.
We're here to help and support you by providing high quality yet affordable suspension solutions but also with advise on anything to do with suspension theory, design, set-up, etc.Quote:
P.S i still run my whiteline swaybar on the ASR kit, and its been perfect ever since
If anyone comes across any problem with our product, please contact us direct and we'll do our very best to help.
Regards,
Wojtek.
Whiteline Automotive.
i have just finished installing this product into my em1, i did ALL the installation by myself (yeah for me). http://www.cardomain.com/member_page...49_21_full.jpg
i still have it set to the softest setting, but once i get my new coilovers i will adjust it to the hardest setting. i could feel the difference it made straight away, diffenently bang for ya buck! i recommend it to anyone.
i got my rear swaybar a couple yrs back now, how am i suppose to you know which bolts are used.. the crap old ones or your 'new improved' grade high quality bolt. and if i am using the old ones - is whiteline going to replace them with the new ones and no charge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteline
i ask this because i have had many issues with your front and rear sway bar kit when purchasing it.
first it was missing bolts. then after getting the bolts and trying to install it. we found that it didnt fit.. i had to drive it to your workshop and found that it wasnt 'bent enough' which then had to be reheated and moulded correctly and reinstalled at your workshop.. you have good customer service when i was there, but i shouldnt of had to be there in the first place.
i would like these bolt changed if in fact they are the old old ones and the issues fixed but not if its going to be a hassle.
i havent checked lately on the subframe or sway setup. but i do also get some creaks on driveways when going on angles.
--
also limbo. how does the asr kit fit with the whiteline rear 22mm sway? any install hassles or modifications needed?
new kit looks great! :thumbsup:
G'day,
handaracerboy and barefootbonzai,
Thank you for your positive feedback. It is appriciated.
newbie,
I am sorry to hear that you have had so many problems with your swaybar purchase; however, we do try to fix all issues on the spot as soon as possible, so it doesn't linger on.
We have never actually had any problems or breakages with our bolts, but if you are concerned about it, and if your swaybar is a couple of years old and using the original two piece mounting bracket system, then you may like to upgrade your mounting to the current single piece design. This is available as a separate kit, and is supplied with high tensile bolts.
Regards,
Wojtek.
Whiteline Automitive.
digging up an uber uber old thread now
bar here says it comes with a heavy duty brace
is it the brace as above or have they just beefed up their old heavy duty kit?
i emailed them before but john at whiteline didn't really specify what kind of brace it is and said there was a photo on their web site but i personally can't find it
anyone care to elighten me as to what it actually comes with now? anyone recently buy the kit?
As it sais, it comes with the heavy duty brace, which we are talking about....
anyone bought one recently and have any reports on how the kit is holding up? any weak points which we should know about?
i think the kit dun come with the new heavy duty brace bcoz the brace itself already cost ard $136+ gst while the kit cost $276+gst. u will hv to confirm with whiteline which kind of brace it come with in the kit
Hi all,
I can confirm that part numbers -
BHR83,
BHR83Z,
BHR83XZ are supplied with the heavy duty mounting bracket/brace.
Regards
John Leighton
Technical / Customer Service
REDRANGER / NOLATHANE / WHITELINE
www.redranger.com.au
Ph. 02 4340 2355
Fax. 02 4340 2466
john.leighton@redranger.com.au
www.Whiteline.com.au
www.Nolathane.com.au
I've got the 18" kit for ~1000 km now. So far it's good.
Haven't use it for tracking or spirited driving.
Feels planted on yarra boulevard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnY