Help...Body Roll? Spr?Shk?SwyBr???

[iijjee]

Have read a bit about EG suspension on the whiteline website and other places etc.

My B16A equipped EG Hatch has unknown shocks and (I think!) lovell springs (maybe a little lower than standard?)

It steers beautifully and rides the bumps pretty well considering the 17's and 40 series rubber.

I don't want the car to be any lower (how do I tell how low the springs on the car are???) but I've owned 4 EG's and this is the first I've owned with such wallowy body roll!!! Admittedly my last EG had a H22A and coilovers (Tein) and it was bone-rattling over my bumpy local roads, BUT even on the softest dampening setting, man did it glue itself to the road.

I don't want to have that kind of unforgiving, track-focussed sussy, but I am desperate for a car that behaves well and doesn't work the stomach muscles as hard as the springs. The enemy is body roll. I'd love some ideas...

I know that more info would help but I've told you all that I know...

Today I took the car to Peddars and had the old 28 pt safety check... The guys inspected and put each corner through the "jelly" shake test. They handed me a report suggesting Bilsteins might firm things up ("I think so" was the actual response), told me the rear lower bushes are shot ($440 incl. labour!) which wouldn't affect the handling or body roll, and that the rest of the suspension was in great order. I asked about sway bars, strut tower braces etc and the guy eventually spat out that he thought the car "handled like it was on rails", "was amazing to drive", "I wouldn't change a thing!" and "stepping out of any other car like a commodore or something and you'd think that car's handling was awesome". Seriously!

Now I don't have much money to spend at all, but, what do the more knowledgable sussy people say??? If the springs and shocks are working well, would a stiffer (say whiteline) front or rear swaybar stop the body roll? What is an anti-roll bar? What about a set of kings lows, spoon progressives or maybe better shocks?

It's really mainly body roll... I hate it! I just sold my R33 4 Dr which had brilliant aftermarkt sussy. On 18x9's they were not too harsh, never bashed the bumpstops and the car sat so flat through the corners!

HELP!

iijjee

[T-onedc2]

Anti-roll bar = sway bar

Personally i'd fit good shocks (ie, Bilstein) with Spoon progressives and a thicker rear sway bar approx 22mm (waits for an EG specialist for sway bar thickness).
And replace bushes with urethane bushes if needed.

[dupac->]

upgrade or get rear sways.. did the job for me when i had springs in it..

didn't make the ride more rough.. heaps less body roll aswell.. felt sweet!

i would say swaybars as first.. then if not happy then try somethign else..

but im sure rear sways will do the job!

i had stock shocks & pedder springs.. + the sway bar.. and it handled well and not a rough ride on syd roads too.

bang for buck is the rear sways.. most satifisfying mod on my car lol..

[iijjee]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?

[yourfather]

ignore peddars. the 28 point safety check is something you might want to take on board, but its a stupid marketing gimmick and will make you pay through the nose for shit you really dont need.

forgot to mention, you can get bushes sets for cheaper

[aaronng]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?

A stiffer front sway will improve steering response but increase understeer.
A stiffer rear sway will reduce understeer.

So if you want a stiffer front sway, you should increase the stiffness of the rear sway to counter that understeer. Of course, there is a limit to how stiff you can go. Too stiff, and your suspension becomes like a torsion beam that every Civic owner dislikes.

[string]

Thanks guys...

Common sense says front sway bars would do more than rear, with weight mostly over front wheels. But I have read a lot more recommendations for the rear sway... what thickness or whiteline part no. is rear sway???

Any other thoughts anyone?

Well the real truth is the opposite to common sense. Stiffening the rear will take weight off the inside rear and add it to the inside front, and vice versa for a stiffer front. Ultimately you want to completely unload the inside rear, just like a rear wheel drive will unload the inside front.

Obviously for a front wheel drive you want as much grip on the front as possible, which is why you want a stiffer rear and as much weight up front as possible (though turn-in then becomes a trade-off from increased rotational inertia).

For steering response I think you should look to shocks far before sway bars. Response implies a weight transfer function of time, of which increasing front shock damper rate will affect far more greatly than spring rate.

[tune2look]

Just wanna say I am no expert so dont take my word as "word" too much.

firstly, rear sway will improve rolling, and response.

When a massive weight transfer happens, each swaybar end is limiting the spring movement by holding the LCA movement and it taking that stress to the subframe where the swaybar is mounted on.
I think that swaybar not only limit the LCA or spring movement, but also it has the effect of taking the corner weight more towards the center on cornering.(NOT to be trusted as this is what my body is telling me...)

Since there are enough people who give very technical informations, I am going to write a dumb version of my understanding. (For people like me who are looking for dumb versions or experience oriented....)

Everytime I am trying to tell my noob (or noobier than me) friends about rear ways on FF cars, I always use this example.
---------
When you are pulling a trolley from front that has only two wheels, and imagine it has the same amount of 'rolling' as your car.
when you move/run straight, oviously there wont be any trouble.
but when you take corner at the same time you are running (in fair speed), you will find your knocked over, or just about to.

Lets say you stiffen the rear of the trolly somehow (=swaybar), and then imagine you are taking corners with that flat assed trolly.
Your trolley stays almost flat and it will give you more support, hence easier to turn, meaning better steering response.
and for the rolling, limited spring movement = less roll.

Obviously for a front wheel drive you want as much grip on the front as possible, which is why you want a stiffer rear and as much weight up front as possible (though turn-in then becomes a trade-off from increased rotational inertia).

I dont really understand why we need as much weight up front.
that means your rear will have less grip and cause oversteer..
I believe it is alway best to have close to 50:50.

.................

[SINISTR]

Worn or OLD suspension bushes usually cause the car to roll around the corners more than normal. Replacing them with either new or urethane bushes will improve this and you will notice your car will not roll as much.

My question is: how do you know its roll and not simply BAD suspension components causing understeer which you associate with 'body roll'.

You said you have 'unknown' shocks and unknown springs - that would be my very first point of inquiry and possibly replacement.

You could be driving on OLD stock shocks and lowered springs expecting the cars handling to be better than good. I'd recommend making sure what shocks you have 1st and perhaps replacing them right away with a new set of damper adjustable shocks. Given your springs are what you said - that alone will give you alot more confidence in the way the car handles.

The reason your old EG handled good was because of good suspension components ie: decent coilovers.

Swaybars are the 'next' step in helping the suspension behave like it should during hard cornering, and i really don't think fitting a 'rear' sway bar as some suggested here, will solve your issue without addressing the basic components of your suspension - shocks and coils.

my 2c.

[aaronng]

I dont really understand why we need as much weight up front.
that means your rear will have less grip and cause oversteer..
I believe it is alway best to have close to 50:50.

Because Honda FFs start with understeer

[tune2look]

Swaybars are the 'next' step in helping the suspension behave like it should during hard cornering, and i really don't think fitting a 'rear' sway bar as some suggested here, will solve your issue without addressing the basic components of your suspension - shocks and coils.

my 2c.

-He clearly said he dont have much money.

-bushing will cost at least 250 aussie dollar, installation will hurt much much more.

-shock/spring will at least cost similar to bushing+installation

-More for coilover

-Swaybar 150 plus if needed, get asr or beak (cheaper, my choice) re-enforcement kit.

I have my CTR bar with beaks and I have no complaint at all.
Yes, it fixed my exact same boat-car to road car.

What you have said is right, no dout in it, but to fix the problem with less cash = swaybar I think.....



and... arrong, is it one of the proper way to balance rolling?
I really dont understand how that will work out.
if front has too much weight compared to rear, I can imagine a car thats with reasonable front traction with no control.
Can I have a little more details please?
Just a OH student trying to learn !!

[iijjee]

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

As I said in original post the springs and shocks were inspected by peddars and they couldn't find fault with them... loved them in fact - supple, nice steering respnse, still firm enough to corner well!

It's just the body roll issue... In fact the more I have started to push the car around the hills near home, the more impressed I am with everything other than the S...W...A...Y effect! From what people have told me I am ready to order my rear sway. I don't want to have lift-off oversteer probs so I won't be going too thick. Am concerned about clearance with my 2.5" exhaust but am leaning towards an MFactory kit which is similar in price to a whiteline, 19mm and comes with an extra chassis brace...

http://www.mfactoryhk.com/products.p...0Swaybar%20Kit

Not sure waht a beaks swaybar is but I'll look it up. Sounds expensive! Any other thought before I press the magic "proceed" button???

Will post results when I fit it!