Audi A4 or Euro Luxury?

[aaronng]

i don't have a b6, so i'm not being biased here, but it's in a different league... there is a reason why the B6 1.8TQ's were like $70k , and euro lux's are $40k. the extra $30k goes into the better engine (+ amazing tuning potential), better drivetrain (quattro), better build quality and much better interior.

don't get me wrong, euro is a great car; had i decided to buy a new sedan i woudl have bought one at the time, but in the end i settled for an A4.

Regional pricing. In the US, the B6 A4 is only few thousand more than a TSX. Same for a BMW 325i. Luxury cars are overpriced here.

Amazing tuning potential is not specific to the 1.8T. It is because it is a turbo engine that a chip which increases the wastegate threshold pressure and adds more fuel that it gets more power from just a software change.

[groovetek]

of course it's not specific to the 1.8T...

but point is, it's a turbo, which hondas don't ever seem to want to put in their cars for some reason...

not dissing NA or VTEC, but turbocharging is a tried and true method of increasing the power, and in honda's case especially, MUCH needed mid-range torque, so they are abit stubborn in persisting with NA.

dont' get me wrong; i luv decent hondas like dc2r/dc5r, s2k/nsx (who doesn't), and euro is alright, but yeah... there isn't much going on technology wise with honda's NA engines... sure, increasing compression ratios... making vtec more aggressive, etc... but ultimately have the engines really actually improved???

in fact, some engines are going backwards! what's up with the new legend's SOHC 3.5L???? is bmw's engineering so much better that it can achieve 250kw with a 3.2 inline 6 NA?

[johnprocter]

yeah why doesnt honda bring out a turbo :S ?

[aaronng]

They did with the RDX and failed miserably.... The MDX with the 3.5L and heavier body got better fuel consumption and performance than the RDX. Honda needs more practice with turbo.

But the main reason why Honda doesn't use turbos in their mainstream models is because they didn't want to take the "easy" way out to achieve 100hp/L back with the b16

[curik]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??! But thinking about it, japanese makers think that turbos are only for performance oriented cars (colt ralliart, evo, wrx, mps, etc) whereas europeans use turbos to downsize engines (E200K, A4 1.8 TFSI, Audi A6 2.0TFSI, golf 1.4TSI, etc). Fuel economy reasons? The 335i can achieve similar economy to a euro when driven conservatively (look at EPA's website). But I agree with groovetek, honda needs to get a better engine. Look at BMW, AUdi and merc. Do they proudly slap a sticker to let ppl know there is VVT in their engines? It's like 10 yrs ago when jap cars slapping 16valve stickers on their cars. Utterly rubbish.

Honda: K24 since 2002 up to now
BMW: Vanos, valvetronic, bi-Vanos, direct injection, turbo, efficient dynamic
Audi: turbo, VIS, FSI, TFSI, TSI

[SPQR]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??

What? They used Samurai swords for a reason and not instead of rifles. Swords are for cutting. Rifles are for making holes. You'd use a sword for cutting a head off (which the Japanese did). A rifle might take many shoots before you'd snap through the last sinew.

[SPQR]

Regional pricing. In the US, the B6 A4 is only few thousand more than a TSX. Same for a BMW 325i. Luxury cars are overpriced here.

Yes, the great rip-off again. Even the new Accord is $15K-$20K more expensive in Australia than USA despite our version being made in low labour cost Thailand.

Amazing tuning potential is not specific to the 1.8T. It is because it is a turbo engine that a chip which increases the wastegate threshold pressure and adds more fuel that it gets more power from just a software change.

Having owned three turbo cars, this is somewhat true. It's much easier getting significant power boosts from turbocharged cars, particularly older ones with less sophisticated computers that don't try to return things to "normal".

Even new turbo cars and non-turbo cars can be cracked if there is a huge demand. Unfortunately, the Euro is not seen as a car bought by lots people interested in modifications so it's hard to get a tuner interested in having a proper go at cracking the computer if all he/she would achieve is selling to ten members of Ozhonda.

[aaronng]

Thats a very conservative japanese mindset. It's like in the WWII, using samurais instead of rifles??! But thinking about it, japanese makers think that turbos are only for performance oriented cars (colt ralliart, evo, wrx, mps, etc) whereas europeans use turbos to downsize engines (E200K, A4 1.8 TFSI, Audi A6 2.0TFSI, golf 1.4TSI, etc). Fuel economy reasons? The 335i can achieve similar economy to a euro when driven conservatively (look at EPA's website). But I agree with groovetek, honda needs to get a better engine. Look at BMW, AUdi and merc. Do they proudly slap a sticker to let ppl know there is VVT in their engines? It's like 10 yrs ago when jap cars slapping 16valve stickers on their cars. Utterly rubbish.

Honda: K24 since 2002 up to now
BMW: Vanos, valvetronic, bi-Vanos, direct injection, turbo, efficient dynamic
Audi: turbo, VIS, FSI, TFSI, TSI

Look at where Japan is coming from. After the war, they were probably hit with many trade sanctions to avoid a repeat and because of that, might have become more conscious about available resources, all the way up to the 90s.

Yes, a 335i when driven conservatively to EPA methods can match the Euro. But what about driving realistically. Most EPA numbers are almost unachievable, but with the Euro, I get close to the advertised 9.4L/100km in my daily driving. Can you do the same with a turbo engine? I know you can't in a WRX. You'd have to drive off boost to match EPA numbers.
Japan had 16valve engines (and stickers) back in 1983.

I'm not doubting that Honda needs more practice with turbo engines (which they should get through their diesel program), but other Japanese brands are pretty good with their tubos. Even Mitsubishi is going to release the Ralliart Lancer which is a step below the EVO but still has a turbo. Subaru has their turbo in the WRX, which was a reasonably priced, practical car (even came in wagon form). And Mazda had the MPS range, which combined comfort and performance in 1 package, unlike the EVOs.

[tRung]

I know its in a different league... Only thing whats holding me back is $$$ for the price ill be paying for a second hand A4 1.8TQ I can buy a 2008 BRAND NEW Euro all options included.

The thought of a brand new vehicle is very desirable...
Just a matter of time till i make up my mind.

[Feverpitched]

Get an Audi Trung. It'll match your phone

[curik]

I will be trading my euro lux for a B5 S4. It has everything the euro has, but it has something the euro doesn't. 4WD and 195kw.

[Exar Kun]

I will be trading my euro lux for a B5 S4. It has everything the euro has, but it has something the euro doesn't. 4WD and 195kw.

Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong! I guess if you're out of new car warranty anyway and can afford the insurance and the maintenence bills the S4 is a great car. I test drove one a while back and loved it. Just owning a B5 already has scared me off having another for the time being.