Honda engine, dissapointing torque characteristic

[rusty]

This seems like the correct section, so I post my comment/question here.
We all know that Honda engine is a high rev engine. It's generally reliable & fuel efficient. But, there is one thing that I find quite annoying. Torque.

Seems to me that Honda engine needs to be revved before we can feel the torque. For example, take a look at accord euro. Max torque 223Nm@4500
Compare to German cars, let say BMW 325i, max torque 250Nm@2750 rpm, BMW 320i, max torque 200NM@3600 rpm, Benz C200K, max torque 250Nm@2800-5000 rpm, C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm, the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.

This is also 1 weakness that I remember from one Accord euro review that I read a while ago, "Lack low rev punch"

I believe this is also the case with other honda engines

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm
Jazz VTI 143Nm@4800 rpm
Civic 174Nm@4200 rpm
Civic type R 193Nm@5600 rpm
Odyssey 218Nm@4500 rpm
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm
CRV 218Nm@4200 rpm
S2000 208Nm@7500 rpm

Does anyone know why Honda design engine with this characteristic? Why can't Honda create an engine that is also a killer at both low and high rev? If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda? Is there any reason behind this design?

[beeza]

It's true.I always hoped a dyno tune with an aftermarket ECU would help.Need Turbo

[panda[cRx]]

lol u have been a member since 06 and it took u this long to realise hondas have no torque?

[vincikwan]

If you noticed, you cant compared the Euro the the rest of the above cars. Most od the cars that you mention above either have a bigger displacement or a super charger. Besides, Benz n BM drink heaps more than a Euro...

Honda speciality is being a high rev NA car...not a big V6 or V8 or a turbo charged car. Like the DC2Rs are cars that are meant to be on the track to race. The DC5Rs are just there to try and strike a balance between a wkend car and a daily. On tracks, you dont go round them at 3,000rpm, you drive around at higher rpm.

[Mr_will]

Seems to me that Honda engine needs to be revved before we can feel the torque. For example, take a look at accord euro. Max torque 223Nm@4500
Compare to German cars, let say BMW 325i, max torque 250Nm@2750 rpm,

- this is a 6 cylinder, so its a stupid comparison.

BMW 320i, max torque 200NM@3600 rpm

- the euro has 23nm more, thats more than 10%. what point are you trying to make?

Benz C200K, max torque 250Nm@2800-5000 rpm

- this is a supercharged engine, so its a stupid comparison

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm

- this is a 6cylinder, so its a stupid comparison the accord euro seems lack low rev punch.

I believe this is also the case with other honda engines

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm
Jazz VTI 143Nm@4800 rpm
Civic 174Nm@4200 rpm
Civic type R 193Nm@5600 rpm
Odyssey 218Nm@4500 rpm
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm
CRV 218Nm@4200 rpm
S2000 208Nm@7500 rpm

all except 2 of the cars listed above have 4cylinder engines. what do you expect? Honda make good engines but they dont work miracles. you dont get low end torque without a turbocharger/supercharger or increased displacement.

If BMW & Benz can do it, why can't Honda? Is there any reason behind this design?

um...can do what exactly? neither BMW or Merc have a naturally aspirated 4cylinder engine that makes good torque at low revs. they either use superchargers or larger displacement engines with an extra 2 cylinders

[rusty]

OK, maybe the comparison that I made earlier was not quite clear to some people. I am not comparing 4cyl vs 6cyl. I'm comparing characteristic
Let's compare Non turbocharged model and the same 6 cyl model

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

I'm not saying Honda engine is bad.

I am just curious why can't Honda tune up their engine to have better low rev torque? (This is my question Mr_Will)
Eventhough Accord V6 has more torgue, With this figure, people "could feel" C280 is stronger that Accord V6 because max torque arrive @2500 rpm.

With this figure,

To panda[cRx], yes, I realized this issue long time ago, but I only bring it up now

[90LAN]

its all got to do with emissions and fuel consumption
easy

[aaronng]

OK, maybe the comparison that I made earlier was not quite clear to some people. I am not comparing 4cyl vs 6cyl. I'm comparing characteristic
Let's compare Non turbocharged model and the same 6 cyl model

Accord V6 339Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)
Legend 351Nm@5000 rpm (3.5 lt V6, non turbo)

C280 300Nm@2500-5000 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt V6)
BMW 530i 315Nm@2750 rpm (non turbo 3.0 lt inline 6)

I'm not saying Honda engine is bad.

I am just curious why can't Honda tune up their engine to have better low rev torque? (This is my question Mr_Will)
Eventhough Accord V6 has more torgue, With this figure, people "could feel" C280 is stronger that Accord V6 because max torque arrive @2500 rpm.

With this figure,

To panda[cRx], yes, I realized this issue long time ago, but I only bring it up now

Why are you so hung up on peak torque numbers? They are useless. You should look at the actual torque curves.

[rusty]

Why are you so hung up on peak torque numbers? They are useless. You should look at the actual torque curves.

Where can we get that? I've never seen one from Honda. I know BMW and benz have that torque curve

[EuroAccord13]

Peak Torque is for bragging rights by manufacturers, what is more important is the curve of the torque, that's where all the hype in tuning it goes into...

[rusty]

Peak Torque is for bragging rights by manufacturers, what is more important is the curve of the torque, that's where all the hype in tuning it goes into...

I agree. It will be nice if all manufacturers are forced to display their torque and power curve as well as max power and torque.

[aaronng]

Where can we get that? I've never seen one from Honda. I know BMW and benz have that torque curve

VTEC.net regularly tests Hondas and Acuras on the dyno. You only want the shape of the torque curve, not the peak number, so you can look at most dynos without worrying about consistency from the varying types of dynos. Here is one for the new Accord 3.5L V6. Look at how flat the torque curve is, eventhough the peak is at 5000rpm.



This one is for the 2009 TSX or the new Euro that is coming out soon compared to the previous TSX with more power than the new one (2.4L 4-cyl).