NEW 2009 Euro Luxury Auto Pinging

[aaronng]

That isn't what I meant at all.

With the Multigrade oil that we use today, the Viscosity rating is self adjusted for different operating temperatures. Compared to an SAE Grade oil, which as you said gets thinner when warmed, with the Multi-grade especially synthetic oils with wide-ranging Winter vs Warm rating (eg. 5W-40), the oil's specification ensures that it adjusts itself thin enough for cold start up, whereas instead of thinning it will thicken up enough relatively to still keep protecting the metal.

For a 5w-40 oil, it is still thicker at 5 at -18C than it is at 40 at 100C. The ratings show that it has the same viscosity as a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C.

My oil pressure gauge reads high when cold, and low when warm for the same idle RPM, which means the oil thins out as the temperature increases.

[integral90]

Is there any specific gear that the sound is more noticable in?

[Bobjones]

Well first of all if there is no ascertainable, seat of the pants power-cut, that is a good indication that it is not engine pinging. I disagree though that you haven't experienced Knock Sensors that do not do their job properly. How do you know, if you haven't put the car on the Dyno? In your and others case, the suspected pinging/detonation is happening at low revs. There is absolutely no way that knock sensors do not detect low-mid rpm range knocking 100% accurately. Only at about say 4000-5000rpm or above do they become a bit confused by other noise but even then, these days the redesigned filter system makes them reliable even in the higher rpms. When I was dyno tuning my performane car before, the stock Knock sensor, my PowerFC computer read-out, also on the Dyno - all correlated. So, I would recommend that you should ask Honda to pay for a Dyno session just to isolate this problem.


Also contrary to what you said, Auto gearboxes get better when warmer. The lower Viscosity of oil or in Auto Fluid's case, is because at low temperature they can flow enough to protect the moving metallic parts. At lower temps, the thinner fluid makes it susceptible for metal to contact metal with the thin film, thus creating 'clunking' noises. At normal warmer temp, the high oil viscosity is operating in its normal range, with a thicker film that protects metal from metal as it should, whereas with cold start up the emphasis is on as fast a flow of oil film as possible. Therefore it is impossible that in an auto gearbox it will make more noise when warmer. You're arguing based on your understanding of thicker viscosity at higher temp relative to colder temp, but in reality the warmer performance is the perfect viscosity at normal operating range. The only scenario I can think of when higher viscosity gearbox oil doesn't work too well in a gearbox is when it is too thick in a manual gearbox, where the synchros makes it hard to compress the oil film and change into another gear.

I honestly think you should put it on a dyno to make sure if it is even pinging or not, as it is fairly conclusive plus there are manual microphone equipment (not knock sensor) that can confirm it further. Its only around $100-120 and on dyno days its barely $50-70!

I think we will agree to disagree. I have access to a dyno, and a very competitent workshop including people whom build some of the fastest cars in the world. For example, our track car makes near on 400awkw, plus I have been building engines with my dad since I was about 6, though they were V8's and have also done a few manual to auto conversions for drag purposes in my time. Plus my last engine was an RB25DET that produced about 300rwkw, and NO KNOCK ON A PLUG AND PLAY TUNE, let alone a multi-million dollar company whom have/should have tested these things at length. And again, why the hell should I spend my time on a dyno when Honda should have done this already...

And, if you knew anything about knock, then you would know that factory sensors are not capable of 100% detection as you claim. That is just plain stupid and arrogant and completely misleading to anyone reading this thread.

You are also comparing manual and automatic gearbox's in your comments above, unless for some reason auto's now have syncros... Comparing the operation of these is like comparing a lemon to a strawberry, they operate differently, they have different inherent characteristics and have different inherent weaknesses and problems.

And last time I checked, engine and gearbox oils get thinner when warmer...with respect to start up and cold oils, yes these do not flow as well as when warmer, however, should clearances not be to the level they should, when the warmer oil in either gearbox or engine purposes, the misalgnment or incorrect clearances become more evident. For example, old engines usually where the valve guides, in order to decrease oil burn people use a thicker oil to reduce the likelihood of oil ingestion through the valve guides, same principle. Also, oil ingestion can cause knock, as it significantly lowers the in cylinder octane level. Further, poor clearances, which are built into other engines, reduce the chance of knock on lean mixtures, whereas tight or low clearance engines, such as what Honda build, are more susceptible to knock on lean mixtures or where other factors such as incorrect gearing come into play.

[Bobjones]

For a 5w-40 oil, it is still thicker at 5 at -18C than it is at 40 at 100C. The ratings show that it has the same viscosity as a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C.

My oil pressure gauge reads high when cold, and low when warm for the same idle RPM, which means the oil thins out as the temperature increases.

Correct aarong. You will also find, that an engine with tight clearances, will read higher oil pressure than an engine built with less attention to tolerances such as a Holden engine...(this is obvoiously with the same oil...)

[jbowly]

I have had another call from Heinz at Honda Australia, they are working on the problem in conjunction with Honda Japan but still cannot provide me with a definitive time for a solution. They however, stand behind their product, which I have requested in writing.

I got contacted by the same guy(heinz) and no I dont think you will get anything in writing. I think this kind of communication is a stall manouvre,
but let me know if you hear anything more about this issue. We all paid good money for this vehicle and they are treating us like SH......

[EH VTi]

I have a 09 Euro Auto and don't have this 'pinging' noise that most of you are talking about. .. So far we have done 3500km and to be honest I couldn't be happier with the car.

I know it seems like Honda are drawing out the process but unfortunatly developing solutions to problems takes time.

Firstly they need enough examples to identify a pattern in the problem. It may reveal that the problems are only occuring between build dates X and Y or only Auto's...

Once they can establish a patterm they can look at the manufacturing processes within those dates to see if something had changed (parts supplier, software revision etc).....

In todays vehicles we shouldn't hear pinging because as soon as the knock sensor detects knock frequencies the ECU should be reducing the timing which will remove the knock.... It just concerns me that you guys can hear it and it is getting worse. To me it seems that the Knock Sensor isn't doing its job or it is something else that is making the noise.

Given that the engine is a carryover from the previous model I would imagine the knock setup is the same..

Am really curious to see what Honda do to fix your problems..

[boleh]

For a 5w-40 oil, it is still thicker at 5 at -18C than it is at 40 at 100C. The ratings show that it has the same viscosity as a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C.

My oil pressure gauge reads high when cold, and low when warm for the same idle RPM, which means the oil thins out as the temperature increases.

it should be thicker when temperature rises as someone has mentioned.. tahts the whole idea of multigrade oil. this property does deteriorate over time and tthats when it needs changing

not too sure on the 2nd bit abt ur oil pressure gauge..

[aaronng]

it should be thicker when temperature rises as someone has mentioned.. tahts the whole idea of multigrade oil. this property does deteriorate over time and tthats when it needs changing

not too sure on the 2nd bit abt ur oil pressure gauge..

Nope, multigrade oil just means that it can perform like a SAE5 oil at -18C and SAE40 oil at 100C. It doesn't mean that it thickens when the temperature increases. If it thickens when the temperature increases, then why do you run you engine to warm the oil up before you drain it out when changing engine oil?

[imo]

I've got a 09 Lux Auto with 650k on the clock and have not had this pinging issue yet. I'm using 95.

Keep at the dealer mate and good luck resolving the issue.

[Bobjones]

I got contacted by the same guy(heinz) and no I dont think you will get anything in writing. I think this kind of communication is a stall manouvre,
but let me know if you hear anything more about this issue. We all paid good money for this vehicle and they are treating us like SH......

I have in writing that they guarantee for life the engine and gearbox as long as I own the car. But that does not solve this issue nor the rattle in the parcel shelf, that exibits from going over bumps and nothing to do with the stereo or bass...

[rusty]

I've got a 09 Lux Auto with 650k on the clock and have not had this pinging issue yet. I'm using 95.

Keep at the dealer mate and good luck resolving the issue.

when is your build date? Maybe this is related to some faulty component prior to your build date. Those of you who get this problem, could you also check your build date?

[LoniJ]

We have also experienced the pinging with our new Accord Euro Auto. We have had it back to our dealer twice now, the last time they reset the computer but the problem is still occuring and they still can't give us an answer.
We have only ever used Premium Unleaded (98 and 95) from Shell and BP.

If anyone has any updates I would be grateful. We are currently seeking warranty in writing beyond the 3 yr standard as we are concerned about the damage this could be doing to our vehicle. The car has now done 5,500 kms.