Timing Belt Snapped

[dsp26]

***EDIT***

OK got to see the car and drive it... feels exactly the same before it shat itself but it is now 10wkw less at peak and less everywhere and the AFRs are uniformly rich across the board... the entire AFR richened up about 3:1 across the board.

the only 3 things that changed between first and last rebuild are:
- CROME chip
- 65mm intake manifold
- 68/65mm TB


ideas? i would have thought the addition of IM/TB would have made me leaner....

[TODA AU]

***EDIT***

OK got to see the car and drive it... feels exactly the same before it shat itself but it is now 10wkw less at peak and less everywhere and the AFRs are uniformly rich across the board... the entire AFR richened up about 3:1 across the board.

the only 3 things that changed between first and last rebuild are:
- CROME chip
- 65mm intake manifold
- 68/65mm TB


ideas? i would have thought the addition of IM/TB would have made me leaner....

Assuming she's been strapped together spot on,
Your problem more than likley stems from how rich it is running.
When you say 3:1 richer, is that .3 of 1 point A/F
Or 3 pionts.
ie: 13.0:1 down to 12.7:1 (this is ok - the problem is not the fuel so much)
Or 13.0:1 down to 10.0:1 (This would be the root of all evil)

In either case, you'll need to get the chip tuned to your car rather than a generic burnt chip.
With the larger throttle & manifold, without tuning for then, generally a B16A will loose power by simply addind these parts.
Eg: Stock B16A + Type R intake manifold + Type R throttle = -4hp @ wheels without tuning.
NB: The ECU runs MAP & is a pressure system, if you fit a larger throttle & shorter, thicker runner intake, the actual pressure in the intake will be slightly higher when the manifild vacuum colapses @ WOT.
This will result in more fuel being added unless it's tuned to suit the new manifold.
Airspeed plays a part too.

[dsp26]

^^^yep it is down 3:1.. will post dyno soon.

but when my build finished the first time it was 102wkw now its back down to 92wkw.

If the CROME was retuned would it give me back more than 10wkw? or is it fair to say my IM/TB combo just wasn't designed for B16?

[Benson]

i dont think you can get 10kw from tuning.

I think the manifold setup might be too big for the set-up.

[dsp26]

i dont think you can get 10kw from tuning.

I think the manifold setup might be too big for the set-up.

so better to just sell the IM/TB setup and not lose out on tuning costs?

this is the last time i'm listening to stupid honda-tech advice

[TODA AU]

If the A/F's are 10.0:1 @ WOT...
10kw is not really a huge ask from a B16A as far as power gains go...
There is most certainly 5 of those KW right there...

The other issue could be the cam timing is different now if the head has been shaved.
This can cause a general loss of power accross the rev range.
Retarded tends to lose power everywhere but still have a good curve.
Too far advanced tends to increase mid range at the expense of top end.

To see a benifit from the use of the manifold & throttle,
You will likley need to have the ECU tuned to suit your car.

Re A/F's
Are they rich everywhere else also?
That being the case, a change in fuel pressure could sort things out.
If it's only overly rich at WOT, the problem is likley what I said in previous post.
With change in manifold absolute pressure due to larger throttle & manifold.

[dsp26]

here tis...

[fatboyz39]

It does not look right at all.

[dsp26]

i've turned fuel pressure down to 32psi from 40psi for now but thats not worth 10wkw....

every post from america says the aebs makes power even on itr cams on a b16.....

i'll switch the IM and TB next cloudy day and redyno....


what i hope didn't happen is the head shop replacing the cams with oems by accident by i doubt it as it wasn't on the invoice.......

[TODA AU]

Looking at the 2 graphs layed over each other,
Yes, it's way richer which can be partly attributed to less manifold vacuum @ WOT,
The amount that's richer by if corrected would bring the power up to near where it was,
But without any other changes, it's unlikley to beat it.
Of note,
The charateristic of the power has changed. (Almost like the Vtec point has moved)
Though the original output is a little leaner than it needs to be through most of the graph,
That aside, it has the charaterisic of advanced cams & a long pipe style CAI,
The current output has the charateristic of retarded cams & short ram intake.
If there was no change to the intake system leading to the throttle,
You need to confirm the cam timing...
Ideally you should have the car tuned with both intakes & use the best.

[dsp26]

^^^sooo.. if i'm only gonna go back to the same power output with tuning bigger IM/TB then it's fair to say that i may as well put the original b16 stuff back on coz realistically i've lost 15wkw peak?

102wkw --> 107wkw setup:
- BC3+ cams
- head shave + BC 0.5mm head gasket = 10.88:1CR
- Cam gears at +2 +2 to bring cams back to spec from less head/hg thickness
- an additional +2 Intake as per buddy clubs specs for the cams
- Ign timing at 14* (17* made 99wkw due to pulstar plugs)
- 98ron
- Stock airbox with 3in SRI pipe from TB to airbox + K&N panel + no reso equipment + bottom of box is entirely cut out
- Stock IM/TB
- JDM P30-J02 rom from jap B16a2 with 5785 vtec x-over
- Then CROME tuned to 107wkw with 6000rpm x-over (BC recommended is 6200rpm)

Current Setup (92wkw)
- BC3+ cams
- Head shave an bit more + oem head gasket = ~10.9:1CR
- Cam gears left the same
- SRI with velocity stack pod
- aebs 65mm IM
- aebs 68mm tapered to 65mm TB
- Using same CROME tune
- LX91 Crane Cams external coil re-installed


Sooo its unrealistic for me to expect gains from the IM/TB addition to the vicinity of 110-115wkw, ie 18-23wkw gain with tuning? a 3:1 dip everywhere i don't think will account for anywhere near that much power even with ign maps modified

[fatboyz39]

Get it retune Ron and see how that goes. From the mods listed it should make over 110kw atw thats if everything is working 100% correctly.