Weighing up pros and cons: AUDM DC2r/DC5r versus AUDM S15 200sx

**EVLGTR** · 29-04-2010 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by infurNOS

LSD and 50/50 weight distribution.

50/50 --- schmifty/mifty my arse --- DC2 isnt a 50/50 balanced car, its so obvious the engine + drivetrain is at the front and theres hardly any weight at the back. ROFL!!!

...Oh yeah ive got a question regarding to an LSD of a DC2R, DC5R and DC5S......do you guys know how to function check an LSD by raising the car - putting into Neutral or 1st gear or whatever and spinning one tyre to determine whether its an open OR helical type ...etc?

It would be an educational post if anyone gives me a hand on how-to

**DC2-PWR** · 29-04-2010 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by EVLGTR

50/50 --- schmifty/mifty my arse --- DC2 isnt a 50/50 balanced car, its so obvious the engine + drivetrain is at the front and theres hardly any weight at the back. ROFL!!!

...Oh yeah ive got a question regarding to an LSD of a DC2R, DC5R and DC5S......do you guys know how to function check an LSD by raising the car - putting into Neutral or 1st gear or whatever and spinning one tyre to determine whether its an open OR helical type ...etc?

It would be an educational post if anyone gives me a hand on how-to

Jack up the car and see if both front wheels are spining, and yeah your 110% correct about integras having more weight at the front.

**EVLGTR** · 29-04-2010 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by DC2-PWR

Jack up the car and see if both front wheels are spining, and yeah your 110% correct about integras having more weight at the front.

Cheers!, is that on Neutral or putting into gear?....oh and which direction it should be going or free-spinning...etc

**45SET** · 29-04-2010 10:28 PM

I'll just leave these here... another thread was closed before I had time to reply to it (Study and new job)...

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4

Most people aren't going to understand this... but some are. I haven't been able to find the Best motoring clip it was mentioned in (Or it could have been another Japanese video), but here is your proof.

But, back on topic, go take all the cars you want for a drive, and pick the one you like the best. You can read all the reviews in the world, but unless you drive the car and experience it for yourself, you won't know which one to pick.

**Mikecivic78** · 30-04-2010 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by 45SET

I'll just leave these here... another thread was closed before I had time to reply to it (Study and new job)...

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4

Most people aren't going to understand this... but some are. I haven't been able to find the Best motoring clip it was mentioned in (Or it could have been another Japanese video), but here is your proof.

But, back on topic, go take all the cars you want for a drive, and pick the one you like the best. You can read all the reviews in the world, but unless you drive the car and experience it for yourself, you won't know which one to pick.

Thanks a lot for the links

Rep point given.

You are right, I have to drive them and then pick. I have driven both a DC5 and an s14, and I know I like both.

I think it will ultimately come down to finding a nice and clean example at the right price. That will most likely govern which car I buy in the end.

I am still keen to hear more pros/cons, as well as things to look out for when buying, as well as how reliable they are (i have not much idea about Nissans as I do Hondas.) and what parts are prone to problems and will likely wear out etc...

Cheers,

MIke

**cyber_scriber** · 30-04-2010 11:49 AM

Mike.

I used to own an AUDM S15 for a couple of years and I've driven a few Type Rs in my time.

It really depends on your intended purpose for the car.

The S15 is likely to be a better daily driver. Torquey turbo response means that you don't need to be thrashing the living daylights out of the S15 to get real world performance e.g. plugging that gap you see in the next lane; taking off in a lane that's about to end without looking like a tool and revving like mad etc. Refinement is also better in the Nissan in terms of lower noise, more compliant ride etc.

Stock vs stock (and you'll find that lots of S15s are modded), I find the Type R more fun to drive but only in the right conditions. For example, if I did a lot of driving in deserted twisty passes or did a lot of track time, the Honda would be a hoot - keeping it on song, working the "snick, snick" box between gears and going hard on the brakes. However, if most of your driving is done in real world conditions and in traffic, I'd bet that the S15 is the better tool for the job. For example, I found the Type R too loud, too hard, too focused and with a power band that is far too narrow for the daily grind (e.g. it's not very practical and can get tiring keeping a car above 6,000rpm to extract decent performance).

Think of the Type R as a scalpel and the S15 as a hunting knife. One requires more skill and precision and is rewarding when you get it right - the other is great when you just want to make bloody big cuts in things!

I find it a little unusual that there's a perception of the S15 being unreliable. In the time that I had mine, absolute nothing went wrong. However, I am a fastidious owner and changed the oil every 5,000klms and kept the car fully serviced. As with any car (even a Honda), if it's not properly maintained, it's not likely to be reliable. The "reliability" issue with the S15 is often the fully sik owner who ups the boost on their S15, chops the springs and then laments at how unreliable the car is when the engine blows because the owner hasn't bothered to engineer the rest of the car to cope with the added power.

The other issue with reliability is that it's easy for a car to be reliable at 141kw, 147 or 154kw but if another car is putting out 250kw, well, that's not really an apples with apples comparison! What I am alluding to is you'll find lots of S15s pushing 200kw at the wheels and this power level obviously puts more stress on the mechanical components (I'm wondering how reliable a 200kwatw Type R will be?).

On the topic of big power, this is where the S15 has a clear advantage. A few of the boys pulled almost an extra 50kw at the wheels with nothing more than a full exhaust and pod filter (easily under $2k). I'm guessing that you'll need a second mortgage to get the same kind of power gains from a Type R.

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!"

**Mikecivic78** · 30-04-2010 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

Mike.

I used to own an AUDM S15 for a couple of years and I've driven a few Type Rs in my time.

It really depends on your intended purpose for the car.

The S15 is likely to be a better daily driver. Torquey turbo response means that you don't need to be thrashing the living daylights out of the S15 to get real world performance e.g. plugging that gap you see in the next lane; taking off in a lane that's about to end without looking like a tool and revving like mad etc. Refinement is also better in the Nissan in terms of lower noise, more compliant ride etc.

Stock vs stock (and you'll find that lots of S15s are modded), I find the Type R more fun to drive but only in the right conditions. For example, if I did a lot of driving in deserted twisty passes or did a lot of track time, the Honda would be a hoot - keeping it on song, working the "snick, snick" box between gears and going hard on the brakes. However, if most of your driving is done in real world conditions and in traffic, I'd bet that the S15 is the better tool for the job. For example, I found the Type R too loud, too hard, too focused and with a power band that is far too narrow for the daily grind (e.g. it's not very practical and can get tiring keeping a car above 6,000rpm to extract decent performance).

Think of the Type R as a scalpel and the S15 as a hunting knife. One requires more skill and precision and is rewarding when you get it right - the other is great when you just want to make bloody big cuts in things!

I find it a little unusual that there's a perception of the S15 being unreliable. In the time that I had mine, absolute nothing went wrong. However, I am a fastidious owner and changed the oil every 5,000klms and kept the car fully serviced. As with any car (even a Honda), if it's not properly maintained, it's not likely to be reliable. The "reliability" issue with the S15 is often the fully sik owner who ups the boost on their S15, chops the springs and then laments at how unreliable the car is when the engine blows because the owner hasn't bothered to engineer the rest of the car to cope with the added power.

The other issue with reliability is that it's easy for a car to be reliable at 141kw, 147 or 154kw but if another car is putting out 250kw, well, that's not really an apples with apples comparison! What I am alluding to is you'll find lots of S15s pushing 200kw at the wheels and this power level obviously puts more stress on the mechanical components (I'm wondering how reliable a 200kwatw Type R will be?).

On the topic of big power, this is where the S15 has a clear advantage. A few of the boys pulled almost an extra 50kw at the wheels with nothing more than a full exhaust and pod filter (easily under $2k). I'm guessing that you'll need a second mortgage to get the same kind of power gains from a Type R.

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!"

Thanks for the post, it was a good read. Just the type of response I'm looking for on this thread

BTW, are u talking about the DC2R, or DC5R? I find that the DC5R is a better daily proposition than the DC2r, and an s15 is probably the best daily with the softest ride and the best torque. On the track however, the bugITR is pretty special. I'm looking for a clean, stock well-maintained example., so I doubt relaibility will be an issue. If I get an s15, I think I'd just do the usual intake and exhaust mods and not put much stress on the old SR20DET.

How many Ks does the s15's SR20 last (on average) before a rebuild is needed? I know that well serviced Honda engines go strong for 300,000Km and sometimes way beyond.

Cheers

**Mikecivic78** · 30-04-2010 08:20 PM

Found some DC5Rs on carpoint tonight. Here are some stock ones listed in my neck of the woods, and prices seem to vary.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true
http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true
http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true

By the 3rd quarter of the year, I'll be able to rustle up $19K, which will hopefully get me one in good condition, or a clean and stock s15.

**Mikecivic78** · 30-04-2010 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!"

Its obvious by this comment you know both cars.

You can Beat most cars, but you tacho must be pointing at some ungodly number in the ITR.

In the S15 (from my s14 experience), it can be a bit of a handful in the wet. Gotta slow down, cowboy, or u might be going to the panel beater for door/front & rear fender repairs!

**cyber_scriber** · 01-05-2010 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

are u talking about the DC2R, or DC5R? I find that the DC5R is a better daily proposition than the DC2r, and an s15 is probably the best daily with the softest ride and the best torque. On the track however, the bugITR is pretty special.

I've driven both the DC2R and the DC5 Type R and Type S.

The DC2R is the rawest of the lot and the least suited of the 3 for the daily grind. If you do any long commutes on the highway, you'll notice the very short gearing and noise at highway speeds. From memory, sitting on the highway speed limit meant something in the order of 3,500rpm+ - it's not really a relaxed long distance cruiser!

The DC5 Type S is certainly more refined and the torquier 2 litre motor seems better suited for daily duties. Honda also seems to have smoothed out the vtec switch over point and the torque delivery so that you're not mashing the go pedal and left waiting and waiting for the power to arrive (though the power is still biased towards high RPM). Having said that, it's still not a match for the instant gratification and midrange torque that the S15's turbo motor brings.

The DC5 Type R is probably between the above 2 cars in terms of daily driving.

I agree that the DC2R is a blast on the track. However, realistically and as a percentage of your overall driving, how much time would you spend at the track? I'm guessing it would be less than 1% for the majority of drivers. That's a very, very narrow window of enjoyment to put up with the car's failings for the other 99% of the time that you're driving it!

I think the challenge for Honda is building cars that remain true to the Type R philosophy whilst appealing to the masses and not just the hardcore Type R fans. I think Honda tried (unsuccessfully) to do this with the current model Civic Type R - it's probably not "Type R-ish" enough to wear the badge. VW have done very well with a car that is still reasonably fun to drive but has the creature comforts and refinement that a broader and more mature audience expects (think Golf GTI).

Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

How many Ks does the s15's SR20 last (on average) before a rebuild is needed? I know that well serviced Honda engines go strong for 300,000Km and sometimes way beyond. If I get an s15, I think I'd just do the usual intake and exhaust mods and not put much stress on the old SR20DET.

There is no reason why a well maintained S15 in standard or mild tune cannot see over 250,000klm without drama. Here are a few examples of high K S15s running without issue:

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...s=17&silo=1011

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...s=17&silo=1011

The AUDM S15 is quite restricted in tune and in particular, in respect of the pea shooter exhaust. Intake and exhaust mods are not likely to stress the SR20DET motor and if anything, will help the engine breath better. This is the great thing about a lot of turbo cars - with just intake, exhaust or other minor upgrades, you can realise massive power gains. In the case of the S15, an additional 50kwatw is not out of the question for such simple mods.

**cyber_scriber** · 01-05-2010 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Its obvious by this comment you know both cars.

You can Beat most cars, but you tacho must be pointing at some ungodly number in the ITR.

In the S15 (from my s14 experience), it can be a bit of a handful in the wet. Gotta slow down, cowboy, or u might be going to the panel beater for door/front & rear fender repairs!

I perfectly understand the appeal of the ITR. As previously stated, it's a lot of fun in certain conditions that allow for constant high RPM. In other conditions, it can be a bit much keeping it on the boil and a times, you can look like you're trying just a bit too hard when all you want to do is get the car moving at a decent pace to keep up with the flow of traffic!

Yes, the 200sx is far from perfect. Like many sports coupes, it has its limitations as a daily driver e.g. limited rear seat and boot space, notchy gear box, and "challenging" handling at the limit or in tricky conditions.

The S15 is better sorted than the S14 though. It has better tuned suspension and a superior limited slip diff. Whilst it may handle a little better than the S14, it's still a reasonably powerful RWD turbo car so you need to exercise careful throttle and steering control in the wet.

I'd reiterate that you should try and test both cars in your usual driving routes. Everyone has different tolerances in what they will and will not accept in a daily driver. The best way to see what you will tolerate is to drive both cars.