Engine oil guru's - i have a question for you

[mocchi]

how about a different perspective?
air filter and oil filter.

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Now, with all of that being said regarding quality control practices, we have still not gotten around to a DETAILED discussion of filtration efficiency and capacity which are so critical to everyday engine protection.

Many OEM brand filters are still using cellulose based filter media (while the structural components are normally of good quality to prevent "failure"). This is not true of ALL OEM oil filters, but many of them.

As such, their filtering efficiency and capacity are not nearly comparable to a high end, high efficiency oil filter using synthetic and possibly even the newer nanofiber media technology to not only increase efficiency but also capacity.

Capacity is an issue in the sense that, the lower the overall capacity of the filter, the sooner it will need to be changed. So, if the filter is being saturated with particulate and it offers low capacity, it won't be long before the bypass valve needs to open to maintain oil flow.

As long as this valve is open, oil flow is maintained, but no filtration is occurring, thus, dirty oil is circulating throughout the engine. If the media is saturated and the bypass valve fails, little if any oil flow is maintained and oil starvation will occur.

So, function of the bypass valve is important, but filter capacity is also important if you're not changing your filter very regularly because it can have just as much affect on oil flow. Many OEM filters are not super high capacity filters. Thus, they should be changed fairly frequently to avoid having them end up in "bypass mode".

Certainly, there are high capacity filters on the market. But, of course, filter capacity is really only a factor in establishing HOW LONG a filter can be effectively used to remove engine oil contaminants. It really has no bearing on how WELL the oil is filtered.

That is where filter efficiency comes into play, and this is also a very important issue, which, intuitively would make sense, but many people I don't think put enough weight on this issue.

In paper 881825 the SAE indicates that a joint study was performed between AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. The study found that finer oil filtration significantly reduced the rate of engine wear.

According to the paper, the tests regarding engine wear within gasoline engines were run at 40 microns, 30 microns, 25 microns and 15 microns (diesels were tested as well, at somewhat different micron ratings with similar results).

The researchers had this to say:

"Abrasive engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in filter single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40 micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30 micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15 micron filtration."

Most cellulose media based filters offer an absolute filtration rating of 40 microns - some as low as 30 but not many. A high efficiency synthetic media filter generally will offer absolute filtration efficiency at least as low as 25 microns, with at least one offering absolute filtration efficiency down to 15 microns.

According to the study, moving from a 40 micron cellulose media filter to a 15 micron synthetic media filter, engine wear would be reduced by 70%.

In fact, although it takes a little extra math to figure this out, even if you give cellulose media filters a generous 30 micron absolute efficiency rating you'd still see a 40% decrease in engine wear by moving from a cellulose media filter to a 15 micron synthetic media oil filter.

This is not filter company propaganda. Detroit Diesel had no vested interest in trying to show high efficiency oil filters to be better than cellulose media filters. That's just how the testing came out.

So, the question is, how much is that 40% or 70% decrease in engine wear worth to you? Is it worth taking the time to REALLY investigate the issue a bit to find a filter that offers you the qualities you need? Is it worth paying a bit more for your filters in order to get those qualities? I think so, but, you'll have to make your own decisions when it comes to the protection of your own vehicle.

[gumus89]

I once read a massive thesis style post on a ferrari forum about oils in general (not just relating to ferrari's).
The advice was that you want the oil to get to the right pressure as soon as possible because most of the wear is at start up. The easiest way to do this is to use the lightest possible engine cold that is the right viscosity at operating temp.
If you want an oil that has a 30 viscosity at operating temp go for 0W-30 is an example. Im open to hearing other peoples views and justification of why this advice isnt sound.
And im not talking about the oil causing oil leaks, because changing from 10W to 0W shouldnt leak out of a properly sealed engine.

[cheapdouchebag]

thanks alot guys. its very obvious that there are oil guru's in this thread so its much appreciated!

i just have another question, sure fresh oil of same viscosity will have the same effect on an engine no matter the brand (which i hope im concluding correctly), and the oil will minimize wear either way, however whats the down-low of when the fresh oil becomes as we say 'unfresh' and the oil begins to collect the carbon as it should be. would that create friction?(im theorizing that the answer is yes) therefore there would there be an impact on how effective the oil is to protect engine from wear.

then lets just say i stop reading from hereonwards and go and google up whats the best oil to minimize startup wear. i would probably go off and buy magnatec as their advertised 'protect engine from startup as it creates a film on the engine internals' or something like that.

is there any product, someone can vouch for or is proven that will
-get the right pressure for a little mileaged k24 engine the quickest
-minimal acculumation of the oil 'losing its edge' after thousands of kilometres of oil usage
-allow for the engine to run as close as it can to brand new?

benjamin - no disrespect but i have a feeling your going to jump ASAP and say 'FEO ultra - designed for honda engines so use it etc. etc.' i just thought i would put it out there to see if anything was better than FEO ultra, its my first car that has costed me a bundle so i am VERY anal i admit about it. i want to look after this engine as best as relistically possible

[bennjamin]

benjamin - no disrespect but i have a feeling your going to jump ASAP and say 'FEO ultra - designed for honda engines so use it etc. etc.' i just thought i would put it out there to see if anything was better than FEO ultra, its my first car that has costed me a bundle so i am VERY anal i admit about it. i want to look after this engine as best as relistically possible

No worry mate. I only speak of personal experience ( combined with proper maintenance )
It would help you - to state exactly what your engine setup is ( more than low mileage k24) to avoid us wasting our time guessing and typing patagraphs of info and experience that is obviously wasted on you.

[aaronng]

i just have another question, sure fresh oil of same viscosity will have the same effect on an engine no matter the brand (which i hope im concluding correctly), and the oil will minimize wear either way, however whats the down-low of when the fresh oil becomes as we say 'unfresh' and the oil begins to collect the carbon as it should be. would that create friction?(im theorizing that the answer is yes) therefore there would there be an impact on how effective the oil is to protect engine from wear.

There are still differences even with fresh oil of the same viscosity. Some have additives which make the oil stick to metal surfaces even overnight, while others have this ability naturally (Group V). However with regards to your question, as the oil becomes contaminated with carbon deposits, then yes, it can create more friction as there is a higher proportion of particulates in the oil, part of which are smaller than the micron rating of the oil filter and hence still gets circulated around your engine. That is why there are oil change intervals.

then lets just say i stop reading from hereonwards and go and google up whats the best oil to minimize startup wear. i would probably go off and buy magnatec as their advertised 'protect engine from startup as it creates a film on the engine internals' or something like that.

Magnatec has nice cold start properties (for a mineral 10w-40 though), but the oil itself is nothing special, eventually doing what every mineral oil will do when punished too hard under high temperature. You get the oil breaking down and/or forming gum deposits. This is what happens to all oils, just that some are better than others at high temperature/pressure. Personally, I'd rather a Group III 5w-30 such as Castrol Edge over Magnatec 10w-40 anyday.

is there any product, someone can vouch for or is proven that will
-get the right pressure for a little mileaged k24 engine the quickest
-minimal acculumation of the oil 'losing its edge' after thousands of kilometres of oil usage
-allow for the engine to run as close as it can to brand new?

There is no silver bullet. Even the most expensive, temperature resistant, cold protecting oil (Group V like Motul 300V) has the weakness of having to be changed often. You need to choose the best choice for the conditions that you car will be driven under.
Mineral - Cheap, can be found anywhere. Weakness: Oil breaks down under stress and vapour can cause gumming.
Group III - Hydrocracked mineral synthetic - Good dollar to protection ratio. Weakness: Lasts as long as a normal mineral oil.
Group IV - PAO synthetic - Good protection and can do long service intervals because the oil withstands heat and pressure. Weakness: Does not like to stick to metal as good as a Group III, V or mineral oil.
Group V - Ester based synthetic - Good protection, withstands heat and pressure, sticks to metal. Weakness: Expensive and tends to require frequent oil changes (6 months is ok, don't expect it to do 24 months like what a Group IV can do).

benjamin - no disrespect but i have a feeling your going to jump ASAP and say 'FEO ultra - designed for honda engines so use it etc. etc.' i just thought i would put it out there to see if anything was better than FEO ultra, its my first car that has costed me a bundle so i am VERY anal i admit about it. i want to look after this engine as best as relistically possible

We've been down this route for the past 7 years since the Euro has been out (and every other Honda out there). You can pour in the most expensive $150 oil but in the end it won't protect any better than a good $50 oil if your engine is going to be driven on the street where it won't see the stresses like an engine on a race track. That's why for 99% of street driven stock Hondas, the answer is usually FEO (or essentially 10w-30).

My pattern is the following:
Street: Edge 5w-30 (Group III) $44 when there is 20% off sale. Even tested this on track before with no issues.
Track: Motul 8100 xcess 5w-40 or Edge 0w-40 or Elf 0w-40 (Group IV), around $65 when on 20% off.

Any FYI, regular FEO is a mineral oil, while FEO Ultra is a Group III hydrocracked synthetic. So no qualms using FEO Ultra for street.

[Bludger]

My pattern is the following:
Street: Edge 5w-30 (Group III) $44 when there is 20% off sale. Even tested this on track before with no issues.
Track: Motul 8100 xcess 5w-40 or Edge 0w-40 or Elf 0w-40 (Group IV), around $65 when on 20% off.

Nice information. appreciated.

Did you just say that Edge 0w-40 is a group IV?

Do you know what Edge 10w-60 is?

[cheapdouchebag]

No worry mate. I only speak of personal experience ( combined with proper maintenance )
It would help you - to state exactly what your engine setup is ( more than low mileage k24) to avoid us wasting our time guessing and typing patagraphs of info and experience that is obviously wasted on you.

certainly!
This euro was bought second hand from astoria honda came with log books n what not etc. etc. so as beliveable as relisitically possible all servicing had been carried out on time from the same honda dealership since bought stamps on the book prove it (servicing were all done by ferntree gully honda). Theres no modifications whatsoever and ever had been. the car sits soundly at 70xxx kilometres. I am to believe that the car has never been maintained privatley always through a dealership.


aaronng - very informative i think i can draw alot better to what oil to use much appreciated. In my old car the motor wasnt very healthy so i generally changed oil and oil filter on almost a monthly basis. So i think in my situation obtaining a group V oil would not have that much of a negative impact in regards to the ammount of hardyard i have to maintain the euro compared to my previous car.

[aaronng]

Nice information. appreciated.

Did you just say that Edge 0w-40 is a group IV?

Do you know what Edge 10w-60 is?

Edge 10w-60 is a Group IV, same as the 0w-40.

[aaronng]

aaronng - very informative i think i can draw alot better to what oil to use much appreciated. In my old car the motor wasnt very healthy so i generally changed oil and oil filter on almost a monthly basis. So i think in my situation obtaining a group V oil would not have that much of a negative impact in regards to the ammount of hardyard i have to maintain the euro compared to my previous car.

If you are driving on the street, then a Group V won't be much different to a cheaper Group III in terms of protection. Since I am guessing that you will follow the 6 monthly service interval, then the shorter service life of the Group V won't negatively affect you. In the end it comes down to how much you want to spend. You can save by using a Group III or IV and putting the spare money towards replacing any parts that have worn during the previous 70xxxkm ownership of the car. The car is not just the engine, and for a car of this age, you will be looking at engine mounts, CV boots, suspension bushings, fuel filter and also put a bit in the kitty in case the aircon or the radio shits itself.

[Limbo]

with myself i've found different oils react differently on each car.
Mobile 1 - 5w50 found it burns at high RPM & long tracking, suprising for me this has been one of the biggest letdowns
Edge 0w-40 good at high RPM but burns on track
Edge 5w30 not bad but burns when pushed too hard
Motul v300 burns on track also
Elf 5w40 suprisingly has been the most consistant, but gets dirty fast
FEO - never really any problems, but the car runs smoother on the syn stuff

I'm running a 19 row oil cooler and a alloy radiator. I've adjusted things in my car now so that on track it only gets to about 100 degrees Oil temp.
Previously my car would hit 110 degrees on track, i think that's where its all been burning

Lately just running down my mobil 1 stock.
Next i am trying the nulon 0w-40

I change my oils every 3-5000km depending on how i've been driving. lately even as low as 2,500km If i'm tracking.
You kinda a have to see what works well for you. But i would recommend at least every 5k a change if your wanting you car to last and regular level checks.
I've only really noticed the difference nowadays cos i track the car

[Bludger]

Hey Limbo, I'm gonna pick on you a little bit.

Nothing personal, no hard feelings.

with myself i've found different oils react differently on each car.
Mobile 1 - 5w50 found it burns at high RPM & long tracking, suprising for me this has been one of the biggest letdowns
Edge 0w-40 good at high RPM but burns on track
Edge 5w30 not bad but burns when pushed too hard
Motul v300 burns on track also
Elf 5w40 suprisingly has been the most consistant, but gets dirty fast
FEO - never really any problems, but the car runs smoother on the syn stuff
But dude, won't all oils burn when pushed hard, to the limits?
I believe you can only make a comparison if you're testing on the same car, If you tried one oil and then another oil, but on a different car then its no point, results are going to be skewed.


I'm running a 19 row oil cooler and a alloy radiator. I've adjusted things in my car now so that on track it only gets to about 100 degrees Oil temp.
Previously my car would hit 110 degrees on track, i think that's where its all been burning
If now you've gotten your temperatures under control, all is good right?
You should get decent performance from any oil?

Lately just running down my mobil 1 stock.
Next i am trying the nulon 0w-40
Seems like your oil budget is way higher than others.

I change my oils every 3-5000km depending on how i've been driving. lately even as low as 2,500km If i'm tracking.
You kinda a have to see what works well for you. But i would recommend at least every 5k a change if your wanting you car to last and regular level checks.
I've only really noticed the difference nowadays cos i track the car
If one drives like how you describe then your oil change intervals would be good.
But for anyone else who drives "normally" on the street then Sticking to the recommended factory oil change intervals is better for the wallet.

[blabla]

so whats the grade of the nulon 10-40?? i am running a purelator oil filter aswell. i used elf but i found it burnt to quickly as i was using the 5-40.