My Disappointment

Hi,

Look, I thought I'd write a little open letter to the community about some concerns that I have.

NOW ! First thing is first, this is not meant to be a rock throwing exercise, nor is it meant to be a personal public diatribe about OzHonda and the way it is being run - but there are a few things that I think we should consider and things that I think can make it better here.

1) Freedom of Speech - Now, I understand that this is not a right, it is a priviledge, but I personally feel that the things that are being cleared and /or deleted not really based on content but based on previous reputation. I'd like everyone to be impartial but I understand that its not a perfect world.

For example, a logical post asking about post and poll lengths and whether or not they can be adjusted shouldn't be a call for the thread being closed.

Criticism of what you do isn't necessarily a bad thing and Im just as open to being critiqued, as Wynode said last night when he told me to grow up.

2) Re-evaluation of the trading policy and the "wiping" of responsibility. Repeatedly Moderators claim that they have no ability to stop people from ripping off other members.

I think it is important that you evaluate this situation and you either start doing something about the people who are ripping off others, or you close all for sale threads.

You seem to have this "superior knowledge" and get communicated with by the members quite frequently, im sure that you have an idea of who is ripping people off. Even a dob in a ripoff kind of line could be useful in dealing with these people. This doesnt mean you become involved in dispute resolution, but you assist those trying to recover their funds in doing so in a legal manner. Yfin is a lawyer, Aarong knows everything, im sure you can figure something out

3) Being afraid to name and shame businesses that are poor - Now, this is another legal issue, but I think it is important that shit businesses get the shit feedback they deserve. Every time someone posts an opinion that is not happy happy joy joy, it gets shut down because you are so afraid of libel.

Thats not saying I suggest that you put your balls on the line for litigation, but I feel that people in a community should have the ability to exchange ideas and information freely, with respect. Those who go beyond the boundaries should be punished.

Now, I was going to post something like this last night but I felt I should think about it for a little while to make sure what I was saying was valid.

Maybe its because I have been here for a while that I am getting a bit cranky and stale, but I think that is a question that some/all of us should ask ourselves at some stage.

I dont think OzHonda has a form of cancer that is killing it, I think its better than what it was when I started - but we need to be careful of hiveminding and getting defensive.

Rather than saying we cant do this and that, try shit out, mix it up a lil bit - dont do a complete engine swap, but try a few different modifications until you get a good combination. We're here for fun and recreation and if I have to be the serious person that I am at the office 24/7 also on OzHonda, I seriously go batshit crazy.

Thanks for reading,

Regards,

yF

p.s. Also, I want to apologise to everyone I have ever pissed off on here, im not the easiest person to get along with. The only exception is the dickhead Jinrai.

not bad points there

members make the Website how it has been , how it is and how it will be.

you may think that is the case, but I think you under-estimate the influence that you green people have on the community.

Yes I totally agree especially the parts regarding freedom of speech. It seems that you can only speak highly and not poorly. it's like ozhonda is painting a picture perfect world, and all negative comments are not allowed full stop. well I'de hate to burst your bubble but outside the walls of ozhonda it aint so pretty...we should have the freedom to speak 'the truth' regardless, that's what a community based forum is about. Recently I started a thread on service departments it was closed down because of supposed negative comments posted by members, well stiff shit if they did, the truth is the truth, if not well then let the user be the one responsible as your disclaimer already states...this is called "keeping the bastards honest" very familiar phrase I'm sure. By allowing the truth not to be told about any issue's is just doing harm to our members here, after all we (members) are ozhonda, without us (members) ozhonda is NOTHING !! The members deserve the right of the truth...How can you deny a member the truth if that's what they come to ozhonda to seek

Mods do what we can to avoid litigation to ozhonda members. If that is seen as "holding back the truth" or "not telling who rips off" to you or others , so be it.

Has there ever been a case where a forum and/or member has been pursued legally that anyone knows of?

not on this website that i know of. But there have been various litigation lawsuits about defaming etc. I think one fairly recent was about hondata ?

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

members make the Website how it has been , how it is and how it will be.

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Nope you are wrong my friend, it's full control by the ozhondahive, the ozhonda hive calling the shots not us :thumbdwn:


Majority of the ppl I've dealt with coming to ozhonda for advice and answers on probems with their cars and fixes if available. We have our hands tied can't tell the truth becasue mods on our arses editing the truth....

*only happy things aloud in ozhonda, we are a happy place, all good here, come to our happy place, yipeeeeeee :):):):):)

in certain instances threads being closed becasue mods too lazy to mod, always threatening to close threads down cause spamming so forth, not fair on thread starters.

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

not on this website that i know of. But there have been various litigation lawsuits about defaming etc. I think one fairly recent was about hondata ?

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no the hondata stuff was because someone posted a hacked version of the HONDATA code on pgmfi.org and they sued the owner of the forum..

Remember they are in the USA and they have a much more litigious society.

(LXRY) ihave no idea what you are on about mate. This is a forum that is moderated by people to the best of their ability. It isnt perfect and "we" try our best.
What are you getting at ? Too much censorship ? You are sounding like beeza on a good day :)
Why do you kick up a stink - when your own thread was closed down after a fair bit of discussion ?

Ozhonda is only a host, medium......never get shut down.

Thanks for caring about me with regards to looking after me so I don't get sued but it shouldn't be upto you to look after my affairs, mods should be worried only about modding site issues.

You are the first I've heard talk like this at least you telling the truth cause half the time it's "edit"..."edit"..."edit"..ozhonda will get sued...can't defame cause they'll shut us down...etc..etc..

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Originally Posted by yourfather

no the hondata stuff was because someone posted a hacked version of the HONDATA code on pgmfi.org and they sued the owner of the forum..

Remember they are in the USA and they have a much more litigious society.

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It wasnt edited or removed by the mods of that forum , look what issues it caused. "We" dont want any harm legally to any members of this forum. Not hard to compute why this site is edited to a degree. Yet again ,, if you dont agree to the terms and conditions simply dont sign up.

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

(LXRY) ihave no idea what you are on about mate. This is a forum that is moderated by people to the best of their ability. It isnt perfect and "we" try our best.
What are you getting at ? Too much censorship ? You are sounding like beeza on a good day :)
Why do you kick up a stink - when your own thread was closed down after a fair bit of discussion ?

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Yeah too much censorship....

look "you da man" in my books ok, at least you fair and keep an open mind ;)

Just a thought , as interesting as this thread is for discussion , what is the final point you (yourfather) are getting at ? What do you want to see changed or ?

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Originally Posted by LXRY

Yeah too much censorship....

look "you da man" in my books ok, at least you fair and keep an open mind ;)

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you are right tho , on occasion there is a reminder in the Mods forum to "relax" and keep threads open for further discussion. I will highlight the mod that closed to keep cool and let things go on for longer for more thought

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

Why do you kick up a stink - when your own thread was closed down after a fair bit of discussion ?

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Which thread are you refering too ? so no confusion....

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Originally Posted by LXRY

Which thread are you refering too ? so no confusion....

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Your initial thread of "why no polls larger than 10" that Qball closed. This set you off i believe.

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

It wasnt edited or removed by the mods of that forum , look what issues it caused. "We" dont want any harm legally to any members of this forum. Not hard to compute why this site is edited to a degree. Yet again ,, if you dont agree to the terms and conditions simply dont sign up.

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dont act so hardline man, it wasnt edited or removed by the mods and the request to remove it was ignored by the owner.

Just like how you block torrent links and mp3 downloads because of copyright.

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

Just a thought , as interesting as this thread is for discussion , what is the final point you (yourfather) are getting at ? What do you want to see changed or ?

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What I wanted to see was a little bit of a re-evaluation of the way that things are done here, to try and make us think of what the reality of the place is, what can be done better and what specifically are we doing regarding stifling debate and information that we could do better,

It wasnt meant to be a shit stirring exercise, but - I know for example that there could be more that you do to stop users from ripping off others.

I think we should try and at least have some form of critique or explanation of businesses etc.

There is a difference between fact and libel

I can't speak for the other mods but imo we delete certain negative comments to protect the member, yes is it an online forum but never the less you can still be done for defamation.

Most often the not threads in the technical sections are either closed because the original answer has been answered, continuing the discussion will only make it harder for other members to search and source information when they look for it. OR they are close because its gettin off-topic and a warning is generally given and spam deleted before it is closed.

At the end of the day there are Terms and Conditions for the usage of this forum, when you sign up and sign on you agree to abiding to the Terms and Conditions.

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Originally Posted by Terms and Conditions

.... 2. If you do not wish to be bound by the Terms and Conditions, you may not access or use the Ozhonda site....

... 5. Members who submit posts are solely responsible for their own posts, and agree not to include any content that:

(a) is unconnected to the topic of the thread;

(b) is unlawful, defamatory, libellous, threatening, abusive, offensive, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, dangerous, knowingly false, harassing, sexually oriented, racist, or invasive of an individual's privacy...

...(f) disclose details about another member such as name, address, phone number, email address, vehicle registration (or any other personal information) without their prior consent;...

.. 6. It is the sole responsibility of each Member to ensure the lawfulness of every post...

... 10. # You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold the Administrators, Moderators, operators, owners, and their agents (the "Ozhonda Parties") harmless from and against any and all claims, liability, injury, damage, losses, fines, impost, costs and expenses (including legal fees) incurred by any Ozhonda Party in connection with:

(a) your use of this site;

(b) any use or alleged use of your account;

(c) the content, accuracy or quality of material that you submit to the site;

(d) your interaction with any member including purchases from Ozhonda traders;

(e) your actions contrary to the Terms and Conditions; or

(f) your actions contrary to the rights of any other person or entity....

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some terms and conditions reminder for those asking why Mods edit/delete defamatory comments

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Originally Posted by LXRY

Nope you are wrong my friend, it's full control by the ozhondahive, the ozhonda hive calling the shots not us :thumbdwn:

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Let me remind you that this is a privately owned forum, and even though we are open to suggestions, we are not obligated to surrender to all requests... in ur case, a poll that features 10+ options.

Theres really no point to that thread i closed, u asked if it were possible, we said yes, however it wasnt warranted.
Aside from Bludger's "agreeance" on the matter, you're the only person to debate this.
LIke i said in the other thread, 1 out of however many thousand members we have is not going to cause a mass change to how this forum is run.

We are open to suggestions Luke ~ i know for a fact tho , that under all circumstances "we" will simply edit or remove any reference to any business or individual , until proven in a court of law. I see the bigger issue here tho , as this is a Trader that supports ozhonda in a way or form ......apart from bad trade feedback , pm'ing Wyn about it , what more can we do ?

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Originally Posted by yourfather

It wasnt meant to be a shit stirring exercise, but - I know for example that there could be more that you do to stop users from ripping off others.

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I cant be fcked getting involved with that Hondata shit, so ill leave Ben or the other mods to deal with that...

Re: the selling and the members being ripped off, its really a simple concept.
Like every other site out there that allows people to sell publicly, the site does not intervene with the sale at all.
Its 100% the buyer's responsibility to do the appropriate research prior to buying.
The more we (as mods and admin of this site) try to prevent "frauds" and "rip offs", the more work it is for us, and to be quite frank, this is NOT our job.
Controlling the FS forum, and ensuring that all sales are legitimate would be a full time job.
So, due to this time restriction, and restriction of manpower, we choose not to intervene.

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Originally Posted by sassy_fit_vtit

I can't speak for the other mods but imo we delete certain negative comments to protect the member, yes is it an online forum but never the less you can still be done for defamation.

Most often the not threads in the technical sections are either closed because the original answer has been answered, continuing the discussion will only make it harder for other members to search and source information when they look for it. OR they are close because its gettin off-topic and a warning is generally given and spam deleted before it is closed.

At the end of the day there are Terms and Conditions for the usage of this forum, when you sign up and sign on you agree to abiding to the Terms and Conditions.



some terms and conditions reminder for those asking why Mods edit/delete defamatory comments

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Hi, look i wrote a longer reply but with the reboot, it got deleted.

I find it highly patronising that you are referring me to the terms and conditions, considering the level of what I believe is good natured debate between everyone in this thread.

Im not going to tell you what i do for a living, but it involves drafting documents and trying to think of solutions to complicated problems, and I know you do the best you can with what time you have, but I dont think you understand what I am driving at here.

Im suggesting that after 5 years of being on the net, why do we do the things we do, and howcome some things fly and some dont.
Quentin, I see your side of the story, and I know that its your hobby too, but I cant stand people getting ripped off or screwed over.

Maybe im just a naive believer in social justice, but Id rather you guys did your best to not accept the reality that is the big bad internet and create a place more conducive to fun and good times.

That being said, yeah it is important that I re-evaluate my behaviour also and I'll try to be a bit more easy to deal with.

Now, to put myself out on a limb, I recall a story of a guy with a black subaru that was ripping off people, like a tumbleweed he'd roll around from forum to forum hocking his fake shit. Some of the mods knew about him and his activities.

The point is, we should be more selective of what shit we can and dont let fly in here. I think we do a good job of getting rid of things like copyrighted MP3s, torrents, unsolicited advertising etc, but I think theres a lot more we could do about making this place better.

For example (and there are so many issues that i dont know where it would start and where it would end)...

For Sale threads and feedbacks... Maybe if you are getting neg repped with feedback, there should be some form of Q&A and get both sides of the story - it might also be a waste of time too but I would rather have people spoken to and warned against anti social behaviour because its the best for the community.... e.g I have 19 postive feedback points but that doesnt mean that the 20th sale I do is going to go smoothly either.

I think the biggest thing that shits me off is the whole you cant say anything bad about anyone because its going to hurt peoples feelings. Unfortunately its a big bad world out there, and the only way to insulate ourselves from this world is to build a community (and we do have a pretty good one) that doesnt tolerate shit behaviour - but it will give people a second chance.

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Originally Posted by Q_ball

Let me remind you that this is a privately owned forum, and even though we are open to suggestions, we are not obligated to surrender to all requests... in ur case, a poll that features 10+ options.

Theres really no point to that thread i closed, u asked if it were possible, we said yes, however it wasnt warranted.
Aside from Bludger's "agreeance" on the matter, you're the only person to debate this.
LIke i said in the other thread, 1 out of however many thousand members we have is not going to cause a mass change to how this forum is run.

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Majority of forums are privately owned, and ? Do you want me to buy it off you guys, name the price...

so your trying to say....we do as we please and you can't do anything about it? just say it straight out be a man go on let it out you'll feel better.

The truth of the matter is because of your selfishness you closed the thread. no where in that thread did you guys say "yes" and but it wasn't warranted you are straight out wrong, I had asked the question and never got a chance for answers especially waiting on wynode's answer. you never even gave it a chance for discussion, the ozhondahive had spoken and that was the end of the matter really.

I am a member at other car forums not only honda and I'm forever trying to defend the "keep it clean" image you guys policing here at ozhonda..

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...A/Picture4.png



http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...A/Picture5.png


this is the link to the site have a look for yourself....

http://www.ozmazdaclub.com/forum/mem...-people-4.html


*read the third last message from the bottom is most important in pictures provided, might have dealings with you Q_ball

The only mod who never edits the truth is panda[cRx], credit goes to him as he always speaks his mind no matter what...his hang all the way to his knees ;)

don't bring me into this lol

Man I was just about to go to sleep then saw this thread lol

I'll try and address all the points as best I can.

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Originally Posted by yourfather

1) Freedom of Speech - Now, I understand that this is not a right, it is a priviledge, but I personally feel that the things that are being cleared and /or deleted not really based on content but based on previous reputation. I'd like everyone to be impartial but I understand that its not a perfect world.

For example, a logical post asking about post and poll lengths and whether or not they can be adjusted shouldn't be a call for the thread being closed.

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That thread was closed because there was a request to increase the size of the POLL options. The thread justifying this had over 50 options and there is no way I would have increased it to 50. That was just one case and I'm yet to have a request to increase it to more. If I received a valid reason why it should be increased (to say 15) then I would have done it.......but alas I got no valid reason. Just repeated replies from the same user. As you can understand I get requests to increase quotas/restricitons all the time......and when possible I do. This just wasn't one of those cases.

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Originally Posted by yourfather

2) Re-evaluation of the trading policy and the "wiping" of responsibility. Repeatedly Moderators claim that they have no ability to stop people from ripping off other members.

You seem to have this "superior knowledge" and get communicated with by the members quite frequently, im sure that you have an idea of who is ripping people off. Even a dob in a ripoff kind of line could be useful in dealing with these people. This doesnt mean you become involved in dispute resolution, but you assist those trying to recover their funds in doing so in a legal manner.

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Unfortunately that is getting involved. If we are required (legally) to hand over any information to the authorities then I will not hesitate in doing that. But chasing up money would mean proving that money is owed.....and you can imagine what that would mean for the moderators. That said, we do have the trader rating system as well as this line in the T&C (which has been there for a long while now).

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Originally Posted by Ozhonda T&C

30.If you have any complaints about a particular user, private message a Moderator of the forum and email forum-mailer[at]ozhonda.com and we will keep your complaint on record. If there are sufficient complaints against one particular user, then his/her account may be suspended if Ozhonda deems necessary. Trading on in the Market Place is done at your own risk.

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Originally Posted by yourfather

3) Being afraid to name and shame businesses that are poor - Now, this is another legal issue, but I think it is important that shit businesses get the shit feedback they deserve. Every time someone posts an opinion that is not happy happy joy joy, it gets shut down because you are so afraid of libel.

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Defamation is a serious issue and there are other forums (not just OH) where they don't allow any such comments. THere have been cases where the forum owner has been taken to court over comments made by a user and that is something I'd like to avoid.

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Originally Posted by EKVTIR-T

Has there ever been a case where a forum and/or member has been pursued legally that anyone knows of?

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Not for OH......and we'd like to keep it like that. As for another forum, yes.

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Originally Posted by LXRY

Thanks for caring about me with regards to looking after me so I don't get sued but it shouldn't be upto you to look after my affairs, mods should be worried only about modding site issues.

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You're half right....we're also concerned about ourselves (and me as the site owner). I don't want to have to be dragged through court because of something you or someone else said that was negative.

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Originally Posted by LXRY

Majority of forums are privately owned, and ? Do you want me to buy it off you guys, name the price...

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Without sounding too obnoxious I doubt you'll come up with the funds. Even if you did I would like to know that OH is going into good hands.

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Originally Posted by LXRY

The truth of the matter is because of your selfishness you closed the thread. no where in that thread did you guys say "yes" and but it wasn't warranted you are straight out wrong, I had asked the question and never got a chance for answers especially waiting on wynode's answer. you never even gave it a chance for discussion, the ozhondahive had spoken and that was the end of the matter really.

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I didn't feel I need to reply because you didn't provide me with a valid reason why the POLL numbers should be increased. The thread you linked to (with over 50 options) was not the best example. If you could provide me with good reasoning to increase it to 15 or 20 then I'd consider it. But in all honesty.........if you can't narrow down your choices to 10 to get feedback on......have you really applied any selection criteria?

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Originally Posted by wynode

Man I was just about to go to sleep then saw this thread lol

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The truth....you knew what was going on you just gearing up to respond 'cautiously' maybe even awaiting a mistake from one of us, might of even consulted the 'ozhondahive' on the matter while observing our comments....but good to see that you in a better frame of mind than yesterday.

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I didn't feel I need to reply because you didn't provide me with a valid reason why the POLL numbers should be increased. The thread you linked to (with over 50 options) was not the best example. If you could provide me with good reasoning to increase it to 15 or 20 then I'd consider it. But in all honesty.........if you can't narrow down your choices to 10 to get feedback on......have you really applied any selection criteria?

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I tried my best to explain why I thought it was important.

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But in all honesty.........if you can't narrow down your choices to 10 to get feedback on......have you really applied any selection criteria?

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how can I do this, how do I narrow all service dealers in aust. what sort of a question is that ? Think about it really...."selection criterior" Lmao at that one..and "didn't feel the need to reply" come on....have some respect. (why even have a site discussion section).


I asked you some questions relating the matter of the poll thread however I feel you could not answer my question's aswell without contradicting yourself too.

I invite you to open the thread and answer my question that i asked before the thread was closed, if you can answer them then you won't hear from me regarding this matter again.

I only want best for the members, I am not selfish in anyway, i go out of my way to help any member who ask or seeks help. i am and have been an active member for a while now, I have an open mind, and I speak my mind and tell the truth always.....

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Originally Posted by wynode

Unfortunately that is getting involved. If we are required (legally) to hand over any information to the authorities then I will not hesitate in doing that. But chasing up money would mean proving that money is owed.....and you can imagine what that would mean for the moderators. That said, we do have the trader rating system as well as this line in the T&C (which has been there for a long while now).

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can you have a look into being more proactive in shutting down those who are ripping people off?

would you be willing to review the traders policy especially in light of the fact that traders who are performing dishonestly (i.e. selling spoom wheels as real spoon wheels) get spoken to about the behaviour?

I think its something that Yfin could probably give a better opinion on than me. I havent seen him on here lately tho.

because people dont make up this kind of stuff - it doesnt come from nowhere...

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Originally Posted by wynode

Defamation is a serious issue and there are other forums (not just OH) where they don't allow any such comments. THere have been cases where the forum owner has been taken to court over comments made by a user and that is something I'd like to avoid.

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i dont want anyone going to court either, but i feel that we should be able to express some kind of negative feelings to other users about a service product or issue.

remember with the DIY board how you needed mod approval, maybe make like a consumer affairs board where people can raise issues (fact only) and mods approve whether it gets raised.

So for example,

Post is, yourfather promised to sell me 5 spoon socks for 20 dollars. I received only 4 spoon socks and he told me the price went up to 25 dollars.

Now, the person posting obv. needs to give the other person the right to reply.

or - replica wheels purchased from yourFathers dodgy wheel emporium broken, and you give a blow by blow detail of what you were doing and people can discuss the topic.

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Originally Posted by LXRY

The truth....you knew what was going on you just gearing up to respond 'cautiously' maybe even awaiting a mistake from one of us, might of even consulted the 'ozhondahive' on the matter while observing our comments....

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I'm going to make this abundantly clear with no sugar coated BS - because thats the kind of person I am. I don't like you. You sit behind your monitor, jump to assumptions, your posts are immature, and you judge people so quickly, like above. What you don't realise is the rife you are creating in carrying on the way you do.

If you have that kind of narrow minded negative attitude, I ask the question why are you even here?

EDIT: As you can tell, I'm also very blunt and to the point, however I'm a very laid back kind of person, easy to get along with, rarely infract people, just give them a heads up in PM, I don't like banning people, but what I don't tolerate is smartasses.

And for the record, the picture you posted up from the Mazda site, where Mr Anderson goes on about not joining up, he has to be a member to view the forum....... Ironic, since he's the thread creator in the first place.......

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Originally Posted by LXRY

The truth....you knew what was going on you just gearing up to respond 'cautiously' maybe even awaiting a mistake from one of us, might of even consulted the 'ozhondahive' on the matter while observing our comments....but good to see that you in a better frame of mind than yesterday.

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You really have NFI mate...
Nothing was discussed, we were all freakn sleepin!!

edit: and what makes you think that i care about what they say on Ozmazda?

guys that ozmazda incident was isolated. not something that should worry anyone here or anywhere.

Would you (LXRY etc) be happy if We as moderators didnt edit anything out ? What would happen when e let it go....then We receive summons from Police or Legal proceedings to take all your posts as evidence in a litigation case ?

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Originally Posted by EKVTIR-T

Has there ever been a case where a forum and/or member has been pursued legally that anyone knows of?

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Whirlpool forums

Touching on the defamation concerns..

Why can't people take responsibility for their own posts and the contents of them?

What ever happened to standing up for yourself?

Just because someone posts something on the ozhonda forum, doesn't mean that ozhonda agrees with that individuals opinion.

That individuals opinion is their own, and if they express it and it lands them in hot water that should be their own fault.

I feel that, in regards to the defamation concerns, ozhonda is taking far too much responsibility and should wash their hands and let the posters become the 'owner' of their posts and be responsible for what they say.

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Originally Posted by JasonGilholme

I feel that, in regards to the defamation concerns, ozhonda is taking far too much responsibility and should wash their hands and let the posters become the 'owner' of their posts and be responsible for what they say.

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Jason, ozhonda IS ALREADY washing their hands of this defamation issue by deleting ppl's posts/editing posts.
It becomes our issue/responsibilty when we allow for such claims to be published.

IMO washing hands, and removing content are too different things.

Washing hands legally and sweeping it under the carpet are two different things.

^^ yup, i agree.

if ozhonda started letting posts about services go through, could u imagine the content? 90% of service related posts are usually negative, cos ppl had a bad experience they vent it out. when they have an average or exceptionally good one, they probably won't post about it at all... then this will eventually lead to spam from outsiders trying to promote products/businesses. just like the majority of technical or model related threads, they're usually about ppls problems... not about how great a part is. that doesn't happen often. see a trend here?

as for getting involved with buys and ppl getting ripped off... that's just ridiculous imo. it's your purchase, your risk. it's the internet for goodness sake... if you're willing to fork out that $500 to buy something you only saw a picture of, then that's the risk you're taking. it's your responsibility to calculate the risk... good feedback for a person and general knowledge of their dealings would be a low risk transaction - any smart person would know that. but when someone is careless and gets ripped off (either out of misfortune or simply being stupid), ozhonda has no responsibility in stepping in and protecting anyone. at the end of the day, the world isn't perfect... ppl get jibbed all the time. that's the way things are so i'd say get over it.

oh, and if you have such a big problem with the way things are run here, please go ahead and find an alternative site to play with. ozhonda forces no one to stay, they have their rules and ways... if u don't like it, speak up... if you still can't stand it, leave and you will be in peace.

btw, i used to be a mod too... from day one, this site has only grown more mature. i only quit cos i had no time. keep it up guys.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98129

Gee i'd like to know what trader was doing this to Joe. As i'm looking for wheels at the moment too, and will probably buy used/near new.

I wish ozhonda would help a fellow honda driver not get ripped off and waste hard earned money.

^ YOu can find out who the trader is.... simply by PM'n the OP.
We're not stopping you from doing so, its the simple fact that defamation claims cannot and will not be allowed to be published on these boards.
Its a legality.

exactly. We as moderators allow the user to find out quite easily. Simply pm as requested or check trade feedback Its not that hard.

isn't it possible for ozhonda to pass the buck onto the individual poster if a defemation case was to arise, by adding some clauses to the all might T&C?

That way ozhonda members get what they want , and ozhonda doesn't have to be paranoid about legalities and will have to do less moderating/editing of posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonGilholme

isn't it possible for ozhonda to pass the buck onto the individual poster if a defemation case was to arise, by adding some clauses to the all might T&C?

That way ozhonda members get what they want , and ozhonda doesn't have to be paranoid about legalities and will have to do less moderating/editing of posts.

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Im sure we wouldve taken that route if it were really that simple..
This is a board... a forum...
We (ozhonda) is responsible for whatever is published within it.
Its not a simple matter of blaming the OP for posting such rubbish.

Eg, a newspaper with a reporter that wrote a really subjective article about a business...
Not only will the reporter get fcked, but the paper too for it allowed such an article to be published.
Same sorta deal here.

you refer to If a case went to court , and a person/business was deemed guilty ? Im sure that would be posted all thru the internet lands and i personally hav no issue against that.
But until then , EVERYTHING defamatory , stating an exact name or location of an individual or business is not allowed , to cover Ozhonda and its members.

that's unfortunate for Joe but good on him for not publicly defaming... i don't know the whole story, but like i mentioned before there's always a risk. i'm sure he would have seen the item before paying $1500 for them, and if he did his research he might have known they weren't exactly what he wanted. on the other hand, if it is such that this trader is not trading fairly and things become extreme, then i'm sure Wyn would step in. he controls who trades on this site, and i'm sure if he finds a trader is no longer being responsible for their business, he can simply remove them.

anyway, Joe can leave negative feedback for his buy... it's like ebay - if the trader wants to keep his feedback positive, he will do what's needed. if not, bad feedback will eventually lead to no business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Q_ball

Eg, a newspaper with a reporter that wrote a really subjective article about a business...
Not only will the reporter get fcked, but the paper too for it allowed such an article to be published.
Same sorta deal here.

---

but doesn't the fact that the person that wrote it is an employee "a representative of the company" have some to do with the matter?

whereas here on ozhonda we are 'members' of a community, which just so happens to be web based?

its like if someone posts defamatroy comments on their website, is their hosting company going to be sued because they are the ones who are hosting it? (the same way ozhonda hosts our posts?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK9

it's like ebay

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its not like ebay, ebay intervenes where neccessary on fraudulent sales. ozhonda refuses to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonGilholme

its like if someone posts defamatroy comments on their website, is their hosting company going to be sued because they are the ones who are hosting it? (the same way ozhonda hosts our posts?)

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Dont quote me this is my current knowledge -
Ozhonda itself can be sued for hosting such information upon its forum. Not the actual host of Ozhonda or its database. The poster if proven can be sued as well. Depends how far a business or individual is willing to push with legal proceedings.
Yet again , to avoid such issues We edit out defamatory comments. Simple.

^^ i was just referring to the feedback :p

if there were fraudulent sales here, i'm sure ozhonda would step in (banned!). but we're not talking about fraud here anyway...

Wouldn't it be easier to pass the responsibility onto the poster and remove any responsibility from ozhonda's plate?

i'm sure its possible. Why do you think contracts are pages upon pages in length. they're not just outling the act again, they stipulating requirements and drawing lines of responsibility.

I should know, every job i do i have to sign a contract.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK9

^^ i was just referring to the feedback :p

if there were fraudulent sales here, i'm sure ozhonda would step in (banned!). but we're not talking about fraud here anyway...

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fraudelent/misleading is what happened to joe.

Further in that thread there is mention of people signing up and selling (for example) spoon wheels and shipping the buyer steelies.

Would be very easy to get half a dozen sales under your belt before being found out. $1500 x 6 is a very good way to make a quick buck.

problem is we dont know the other side of the story with EGJOE's situation. What if the seller is selling under consignment ? Or the good sent where 100% quoted , but swapped in transit etc? I know these situations arent plausible , but thats what a court is supposed to work out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JasonGilholme

fraudelent/misleading is what happened to joe.

Further in that thread there is mention of people signing up and selling (for example) spoon wheels and shipping the buyer steelies.

Would be very easy to get half a dozen sales under your belt before being found out. $1500 x 6 is a very good way to make a quick buck.

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i feel like we're going in circles here... lol

at the end of the day, if someone wants to rip ppl off, they will. there's no stopping me from doing what you just mentioned - selling half a dozen fake rims at full price then disappearing - even with my "good" rating and "reputation". if that happened, there is absolutely no way anyone could have prevented it - they can only stop me from doing it in future, ie banning me.

that's just the way things are... it is the internet, ppl for some reason can't see that anymore. they make a transaction online and expect everything to be perfect. but there's a risk - from the type of seller, shipping, anything can go wrong.

i duno... ozhonda try to do their best in preventing these things from happening - from members needing to have "contributed" to the forum before selling and i'm sure there's some kind of criteria traders need to meet before coming on here. but like i said earlier, 1 bad experience compared to a huge amount of good experiences and this trader is getting done for it. if it's who i think it is, i have traded with them on 2 occasions - all good.

Lets not forget that the members are the most important thing here, seeing as though we are the ones that are 'building' this community.

If the members were the most important part of this forum, then there would be more pressure on the traders to provide a quality service to us. Obviously there are some great traders on here that do their job well, work hard at getting good products for their customer base, and are generally cool to talk to and ask car related questions.

However, there are some poor traders which offer nothing new to us and, IMO, aren't anywhere near as capable as the higher end traders. Now, i understand that the traders are the main income for ozhonda, and as such they take up a large portion of the forum, but, wouldn't it be better for ozhonda mods to be chasing down good/reliable traders that would offer more to us rather then editing posts left right and centre to avoid legalities.?

That way we would have more selection of traders (therefore more competitve prices), a better incentive for traders to keep their reps up (therefore better quality to members), and hopefully less threads with people voicing their opinions on traders in a negative way.

it just seems like the goal of having the traders is to provide income for ozhonda, rather then providing a good service to its members and enhancing the environment.

I sure would have loved to spend the last 6,000 on my turbo parts with ozhonda traders rather then ebay stores\online stores..

to the above - time will filter out the good guys to the bad guys. Im sure Wyn only asks for a ABN , money to pay the fees and then thats all a person needs to have to become a trader. If they are dodgy they will get caught out. the trader in question isnt dodgy. He has a near perfect history. But if he continues to do so he will get the boot im sure.

so money > quality

so much for members being of importance..

we are going around in circles here.

Do tell how WE as moderators or the sites owner are supposed to determine who is a quality trader and who isnt ? This entire forum is for the members , this is why the traders have their own sub forum for members to browse without over-saturation of advertising.

^^ I can fully understand what you mean. Definitely some of the traders on here do an amazing job compared to others.

But i can't comment on how, y or who is chosen to be a trader. I think it's difficult enough to find traders, let alone chase down better traders to do business here. Wyn and the rest of the guys run Ozhonda purely for the community and their love of cars and all in their spare time. It would be great to do what you mentioned, but imo too difficult when this place is driven by it's ppl, members & admin - and not for business/profit purposes.

i think we (i definitely do) should be grateful that this community is even here... without the traders and the marketplace, i definitely would have struggled to get certain parts/things. we know it's not perfect, but the guys do their best with what's here and all in their spare time, without any personal benefit to themselves.

well if the only requirements are an ABN and money then theres alot more that is doable to ensure that the trader is 'worthy' of trading on the forum and able to provide something good to the members (which are important to both parties - ozhonda & the trader).

Simple questions like:

what would you be selling on the forum ( just wheels, performance parts, asthetics etc)

what previous/current trading activities do you have? ( ebay, other forums, actual shop front etc)

how do you plan to operate? (regular restocking, importing containers from over seas (grey import - very important to members, authorised dealer etc)

what policies and procedures do you have/implement in your sales (refund procedures, complaint handling etc)


Any person that runs a serious business should be able to answer those questions without any difficulty.

Those questions should be able to give wyn/mods a good start in knowing whether the possible new trader is going to be a benefit to the community or just a potential pain in the ass for members.

That should be a good start in weeding out the pros and the cons.

EDIT: I am grateful that the community is here, and understand that its not a right and is a privilege to have, but does that mean that it can't be made better?

^^^ i think they do have some kind of criteria, who wouldn't. i think every trader would benefit the community, whether their services are amazing or crap. the more competition, the better it is for the market.

but like Ben said, time will only tell. it's hard to judge a trader before they begin trading. if over time they start to suck... no doubt they will be gone. traders are ppl at the end of the day... sooner or later we'll find one that's a pain in the ass, can't help it. lol.

i have to disagree with "every trader would benefit". I'm more then able to become a trader and start selling items, but am i going to be able to compete with a trader like JDMYard? I think not.

Quality traders vs quality traders = descent competitiong and descent results for members.

Dude, do you have any idea how much work that is to be researching etc etc about every single trader prior to signing them up?

All for a "feature" of the forums, that ISNT supposed to be the main priority of Ozhonda.

Seriously, we only hear about the cases that are negative,
Negative versus good - i say the way our trading operates now, works.
Its unfortunate that some people here get ripped off - but theres really nothing more that we can do imo.

You shop, you buy, you transact at your discretion.
If in the instance that a trader has ripped off a member, then he/she should get in touch with mods/admin - and we'll investigate further.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bennjamin

exactly. We as moderators allow the user to find out quite easily. Simply pm as requested or check trade feedback Its not that hard.

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yep if joe had left feedback for the trader we could all access view it by clicking on his trade rating under his username http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/itrader.php?u=19521&iv=4


another thing is we are yet to hear the traders side of the story. the trader may very well be in the wrong but they at least deserve a right of reply

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Q_ball

Dude, do you have any idea how much work that is to be researching etc etc about every single trader prior to signing them up?

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probably alot less then looking at every post and checking/editing it for legal safety.

If we had quality traders, that did a quality job, we wouldn't have to worry about being ripped off.

It seems as though when i look at the traders list i see the equivalent of 2/3 major tuning shops and then a whole bunch of market stalls...

^^ agreed. we've only heard a fraction of the story - not taking anything away from Joe.

anyway, the more i write, the more confused i get... haha.

Caveat Emptor... buyer beware...

I do have an idea though, for the noobs that dont know so much about the buying situation, perhaps have an eBay style rating next to the traders name, rather than having it behind a link that one needs to follow and read comments which could potentially be very long...

Lot of work to set up, but a more ready deterrent i suppose... but then you are really moving the focus of the site in a direction which is completely obvious by Wyn's commentary that he doesnt want to take it... its a community not a sale site...

Difficult balance i suppose... then again, the issue will be more prevalent in the private sellers rather than traders... then where do you draw the line, does everyone have a visible percentage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zilli

Caveat Emptor... buyer beware...

I do have an idea though, for the noobs that dont know so much about the buying situation, perhaps have an eBay style rating next to the traders name, rather than having it behind a link that one needs to follow and read comments which could potentially be very long...

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errrr it already IS very similar to ebay, except we don't have stars lol

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7929/lol1zu1.jpg

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4932/lol2xn7.jpg

sorry, i cant see the pictures youve got there Panda, but when i look at someones post it says the number of peices of feedback right? does it say, at a glance, whether its good or bad or put any rating on it without having to go into it and read everything?

<---look where is says trade rating. you click on the number and you see the full details, which is exactly the same as ebay. the only difference is ebay displays a &#37; of positive feedback on the smaller screen, whereas on ozhonda it's seen on the second screen with the fully detailed feedback

which is exactly what i am suggesting in my original post, that perhaps more visibility of that percentage may help....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zilli

which is exactly what i am suggesting in my original post, that perhaps more visibility of that percentage may help....

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i believe such a thing isnt possible as Wyn is sticking to vb in its basic format. Any further "additions" (such as stars ala ebay) leave backdoors in the websites security. Plus we dont cater to the absolute lazy member that requires over-information , it takes 1 heart beat to click someones trade feedback and thats it. Dont be lazy.

fair enough... it was just a suggestion...

nps ~ all suggestions are welcome !

Coming from a personal point of view, and not an 'Ozhonda' point of view.

It seems to me that more and more people are lacking responsibility and their own resolution for their own actions. Rather than solve the issue outright by themselves, and if failing, they always have to find someone else to blame. I.e. trader system is not good enough, need more visibility of xyz, need more stringent processes, OH is all about money and not members , etc etc

Sure those are fantastic ideas and some very valid comments but do you actually understand the bigger picture of how a forum operates and how you expect it to operate being a FREE site to join and use? Why should the forum owner bare any risk of legal action? He shouldn't. If you can pull yourself away from the "me me me" viewpoint, you might start to understand. If i was subject to legal action due to iresponsible actions by members, I would shut the site down. All those ungrateful people can go and do their own forums, run it the way they like, etc etc. You will very soon realise that without certain stringent processes, things get out of hand VERY quickly and the quality of information drops very very low.

Buying or selling ALWAYS has a risk, THATS why you usually pay less on these forums and traders, as opposed to going to a retail shop. You factor in the risk involved. You factor in things getting lost in the mail or getting broken. It sucks but this is a fact of life. Joes situation sucks balls, and I can't say the trader did the right thing, but its not that hard to spend 30 seconds sending a pm to Joe so YOU don't make the same mistake in the future. Our support goes to Joe and I hope he gets this resolved in the right manner. If not, i guess he'll have to cop it on the chip.

As for LXRYs comments, Shen, I've met this guy several times, and rather than name call and reference by a few mere comments, I have known him to be a open, friendly and very humble person. Certainly one of the more pleasant and responsible members of society.

So in summing up, I believe we have to stop blaming everyone else around us for shit that happens, sure we can make recommendations , but understand that being a free site, being maintained by VOLUNTEERS, we cannot expect to have the site run as we all wish. Something has to give.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ludecrs

I'm going to make this abundantly clear with no sugar coated BS - because thats the kind of person I am. I don't like you. You sit behind your monitor, jump to assumptions, your posts are immature, and you judge people so quickly, like above. What you don't realise is the rife you are creating in carrying on the way you do.

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In the spirit of a fair debate, I think you should remove this comment. Like or dislike, this is meant to be an impersonal debate about ideas and suggestions, you are entitled to your opinion because you area human, LXRY is entitled to his also - but just because you have your name in Green doesn't mean that anything you have to say is any more valid or interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ludecrs

If you have that kind of narrow minded negative attitude, I ask the question why are you even here?

EDIT: As you can tell, I'm also very blunt and to the point, however I'm a very laid back kind of person, easy to get along with, rarely infract people, just give them a heads up in PM, I don't like banning people, but what I don't tolerate is smartasses.

And for the record, the picture you posted up from the Mazda site, where Mr Anderson goes on about not joining up, he has to be a member to view the forum....... Ironic, since he's the thread creator in the first place.......

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So do you support punishing people that behave poorly?

However having said that, due to the surging member numbers of this site, with alot of lazy fickle people not doing homework etc , being cheapasses, people WILL get tricked into fradulent sales. This comment is NOT referring to EGJOE might I add.

Also, with internet being so much more accessible, the typical 'faceless' e-warrior will be so much more prevalent (hence that observation on mazdaforum). I too have noticed this, and am beginning to dislike certain users of this site, but hey, thats a part of life.

If you want a premium service, you will have to pay a premium price for it unforuntately nowadays. Ozhonda is a great resource being a free information hub.

Hi Luc :wave:

how about a sticky on traders forum and list all the negative feedbacks for all traders.

eg

trader: mocchi
details: 69 bumbleebee rd, 1337 ABN: 007133725
neg rep: -4
neg rep details:
-1 from user blabla
comments: i got wrong stuff! trader didnt do jack!! >: (

this way traders will be wary cos they're bad feedback is being stickied.
get them scared

i know user can see bad feedbacks by simply clicking trader rating number but this is just to emphasize the importance in being careful.

just a suggestion... :)

... i didnt do that +18 thing lol. i swear!

good suggestion, but actually, if you think about the steps involved in finding feedback, its the same number clicks to see feedback from current system to your suggestion. So its really not that hard for someone to click on that little number under their name. In fact, its probably easier.

yeah but by doing that, you can only see the bad feedback for that particular user only.. where as if its stickied, all bad feedback categorized by traders can be seen.

so its like a database of bad feedbacks of traders

I dont get what you're trying to say here...
The current trader rating system does all that just fine...
It links off the persons profile ... so theres no need to search through masses of feedback for a particular trader.