nah, the OP was trying to take advantage of an offer on a "race head" from the USA...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
i think he has since realised the folly of this path... (due to our combined input)
so i *think* he is revising his position...
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nah, the OP was trying to take advantage of an offer on a "race head" from the USA...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
i think he has since realised the folly of this path... (due to our combined input)
so i *think* he is revising his position...
TB - Pretty much spot on.
Look, originally I had plans of building an NA build but realise the limits are around the 160kw mark and with considerable money spent IF that isn't enough (which I don't think it will be - more below) you have to start over basically .. However as I love the NA response etc I thought there may be a way to get a 'taste' of things to come if I committed to going down that path.
In terms of power levels, and noting that if I went FI it'd only be a roots style or a screw type blower (to retain the NA characteristic of the car as much as possible), I guess on a stock motor at 11psi (reliable except for the belt breaking / slipping) something in the order of 180-200kw@wheels with strong torque across the range. I feel that the chassis could handle this on a track but not much more really.. My theory is that with this sort of straight line potential and the already strong braking / cornering traits which will only be built on, it'd be an interesting time attack car in almost full trim. From there when the car is 'retired' for weekends only etc, I will rebuild the engine, strip car, change blower systems, go a little nuts etc.. Plus I'd get that gorgeous whine everyone time you press the loud pedal lol (
So now I'm re-thinking which path to take to reach my goal -- I do know where I want to finish. I'm trying to figure out the best journey on the way there.
The car just simply (as with a lot of the hondas, especially the nsx) is under-powered.. My goal is to make it a fast type r in anyones books really. I think 200kw would give it the potential to be a weapon and potentially too much, but its easy to change boost pulleys :)
the AUDM B18C7 engine wont take 11psi of S/C boost with out ......
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you guessed it!!!!
rebuilding the bottom end!!!
I think a well prepped B20vtec will serve you well for what you are after.
You dont mean 200hp? LOL. If you want 200kw build a k and be happy with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
lol @ TB -- Yes it will, they do, from Jackson Racing with Hondata backing. Its the Hi Boost Kit which is as high as you can go without a rebuild / lower compression / retarding ingition significantly.. Something to do with the Dynamic vs Static Compression? I'll dig up the tech article I found a while back too. It is also encouraged to reduce the rev limiter as there is no longer a need to go that extra 1000rpm, but you can, just extra wear and tear that can be avoided.
I like the fact also that its still a type r, albeit supercharged, it still has its 1.8L origins :)
In fact with rotrex kits they are achieving up to 13psi on stock internals reliably, again something to do with the nature of compression and the properties / tuning -- admittedly, they are dialling in a little too much retard I think, run the risk of something going bang on the exhaust side with the heat! So yeah -- They aren't bulletproof stock bottom end, but they are capable.
make sure you are not confusing information regarding the lower compression B18C5 engine with the higher compression B18C7 engine
just a thought ;)
good pickup -- Yeah I thought about that, but most of the articles that were worth anything were from UK and I thought they had same compression as us?
Apparently the only thing that happens if you run too much boost is that in order for it not to ping, you have to retard the ignition. The exhaust temps will rise signficnatly creating hot spots / burning valves and worse. Their tuning indicated that 11psi was a safe level of boost but had to be specifically tuned with aftermarket ecu. anything over this and detonation becomes an issue, and yes then rebuild the bottom end. But there have been very little reported problems even with some of these guys running 1 bar (stupidly, very inefficient) through type r motors so they must be fairly tough lumps of metal.. I don't think I'll need more than 9 pounds really, that should get me close to my power goals. 11psi is a bit silly for the street I think, wheel spin everywhere.
Idea would be to get it tuned (and this is the great part I love about it) with a 7psi pulley for daily driving and 11psi for the track. Simpy swap pulleys, adjust cam timing as needed and load the map.. wicked. And all while retaining that great NA feel..
I'm happy to be an oz guinea pig and go down this route .. doesn't seem common and I'm not convinced on why.
so maybe you need to speak to whoever it is who you are going to use for tuning up there in QLD?
they might give you some insightful advice...
(no point getting a set-up only people in another country have experience in tuning - just another thought ;) )
Yeah I've thought about that too.. The guy up here has been tuning for around 6 years and although he hadn't tuned a hondata before he quickly got used to it. The workshop also specialises in supercharged applications mostly for domestic v8's so they understand the traits of roots style blowers (thats mostly what is used there). Further Hondata have a basemap for various boost levels requiring fine tuning to each engine obviously. I have confidence in him after speaking with him and watching him tune the engine..
They are a proven application. My only concern is that I understand the intake manifold and supercharger can get hot quite quickly (not a concern on the street, but on the track, definitely) and power drops right off as efficiency of the blower goes out the window.. Because the blower is mounted on intake side and is a direct blow-through, the only cooler option is really an after-cooler (LHT Performance made one a while back) and then there are modifications for water-air and also water injection if you want to really get into it.. But I'm hoping the charger with some sort of cooling system will provide the goals I am looking with good re-sale on the parts with little overall effect to the car if I decide a different route is required.. and the fact that I've seen several around at the moment for very reasonable prices makes it an attractive option.
As I posted in another thread previously, there is a M90 kit for very good price in the US at the moment, just released. Capable of 450whp, with massive usable power all over the rpm. If I rebuilt the bottom end, something like this could be perfect but would need some sort of staged mechanism / boost controller to bleed boost at lower gears .. I kinda want to try something a little different and potentially provide yet another avenue for people to explore with reasoning behind the choice made.. I guess it all depends on the responses I get back from a few offers I've put out there.
You talking at the wheels of Flywheel there Chris? Also a B series can be 1.6-2.3 so it really depends on what size motor were talking here and what application, a big 2.3ish motor might make the power and be good for drags, but struggle with the stresses or the track over a period of time, but as it was a discussion in the 1.8-2ltr area, that was the power figures i was putting out there as the better ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
200KW ATW on a 84 bore, Phils K made 198 being a 2.4, will be a stout effort if it comes together, 95x84 im assuming? When will this be coming together?
Actually it will...Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Max effort on a stock engine is 220~230kw @ the wheels (12psi)
Need the right parts, but it'll do it.
That's turbo not supercharged
Wheels Slaz, I'm hunting around the 2.1 area. I'm still doing some calculations to see where I can realistically make some decent gains. I'd still like to retain the standard stroke. It's going to be one highly strung mofo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaz
i didnt say turbo charged, i specifically said "11psi of S/C boost" :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by TODA AU
turbo has more control (thermodynamic) than a S/C... and hence can take more boost - i think the ease of inter-cooling a T/C has something to do with this?
if the OP was not trying to be different and unique, then the most obvious option is a turbocharger, isn't it?
std stroke with 2.1l? that is a 86.5mm bore... how you going to get that on a std sleeves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
86mm on standard sleeves. Pushing it, I know.
EEEKKK, good luck, hope the sleeves and headgasket hold together for you, look forward to hearing how it goes. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
86mm? nice say goodbye to the sleeves.
Can I ask this -- IF the sleeves crack etc, are the internal generally salvageable? i.e. If you can pick up B20 blocks on the cheap, why not give it a crack!?
sleeves dont crack when the stuff inside of them is stationary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
but luck would play a part in how much damage would be caused.
Chris - what sort of block girdle/bracing will you be employing, if any?
As tinkerbell said - you won't wake up one morning to find coolant/oil on the floor because the block decided to crack. If the sleeves crack, depending how they crack it can be a case from a hairline crack causing that cylinder to fail, could take out the piston with it or to the extreme of the whole block splitting in two. This happened alot in the 80s when half weighted cranks were buzzed too hard and the harmonics caused the block to split, not from weak sleeves.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewendc2r
TB - A combination of resin filling, guard not too far down from the deck and block posting mid way between the two. This will only provide the sleeves to be rigid from not "wandering" at high rpm/load. The sleeve being able to handle that sort of power with a 2mm thinner sleeve is another story as we both know.
Girdle on the bottom end is a must, pretty scary seeing no girdle down there!!! :wave:
lol - like holding a crystal champagne flute with a pair of vice-grips? whislt running up stairs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
nah, sounds good - tuning is key, but you know that...
Haha no gridle here and it revs to 9400-9600 at times
Chris, dont bother with the B if your going 86mm, better off starting with a K block
Havn't had the chance to do that one yet :pQuote:
Originally Posted by tinkerbell
Benny - Throw more power into your motor Benny, then tell me you don't need to re-inforce the bottom end, it will only be a matter of time until you twist something.
I love oz honda.
It has more than enough power. If it was going to twist, it would of done so on the track. Remember its not a street motor, it gets to see more 9000rpm than any ordinary motor
Seems like your going to too much trouble to do what you want chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benson
I'm not going to bother.
Why because we have an engine that makes good power turns to over 9000rpm and has none of the internet BULLSHIT put into it.The lesson with B20Vtec engines is build them right, tune them right,and dont listen to e-mechanics with no idea only very smart with words and posting crap they read somewhere or dreamed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
Sounds like the same way people have built strong engines for the last .. little while anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
I still think that if you are willing to dig deep enough there are enough tech articles to make your own mind up for most things i.e SAE papers etc .. But engines remains one of the areas that seems to have so much misinformation. Still, without the bullshit you wouldn't have the full picture. I think its as important to know why not to do something (or how someone's setup didn't work) as it is to find out someone's ultimate setup.
I'd be interested in the build in anycase, to get another result / post that might be useful to someone else.. If anyone wants a great head for a b20 let me know and i'll shoot you some details .. Its early but its late, good night.
For what its worth there really is only 2-3 people that have the experience and knowledge to build a REAL 150+KW B series engine there are many on this forum that just read to much build one engine and they think they are a legend engine builder.Just dont let these people lead you the wrong way with there advice, stories and dreams it will waste alot of your money.
From personal experience, that is so true. Great advice there :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
Who would they be Jimmy so we know who to listen to? :rolleyes:
yea you can only use google for so many things until the shit talking runs out.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
You know 1 of them very well,one does not want to be known and the other is a mate of the one that does not want to be known who talks to the one you know very well :p.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaz
Oh, so Adrian, Dyno Dave and Phil in your eyes im assuming?
Im just clearing it up for everyone else involved as the b20 is becoming more popular and is a regular topic on here?
2/3 correct.
So im assuming he doesnt frequent the forums as Phil and Adrian do so thats who you suggest people turn to for reliable information regarding b20 builds?
Seeing your motor is making 150+ and Dave builds your engines but not on any Oz forums and retired from the scene as you have said, i thought he was the other you spoke of, my apoligies. :thumbsup:
You make a very good point there about clearing it up but the problem is the info will only make the e-mechanics worse with the correct knowledge on how to build a good B20.Now reading your list I was not really thinking about Phil as he really just likes and mainly builds K engines and the old bastard has a good mate that does alot of engines for IPRA cars and he has built some very good Honda engines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaz
I know who you speak as the missing other. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
But being a public forum, there is always going to be e mechanics and there isnt much anyone can do about that, im just trying to make it aware that people do their research and see what works and what doesnt before they go forking out cash on parts that may not suit their goal or application.
Slaz I really think Tinkerbell is the right guy to do a writeup he was the first to do a B20 in Aus and his engines have proved that you can build a simple engine that will serve you for many years.
wheres your mechanics licience?Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
he doesnt have one but he's got an e-mechanics license lol.
I'll be honest with you guys, you don't need to be a mechanic to know what you're doing when it comes to this side of work. It helps depending on who you are though.
yea thats true to a degree, google dosent have all the info you need to build a motor thats why they have course you can do at tafe and shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chr1s
Dave would be a good guy to do a write up on B20's if he could be bothered, maybe the forum or all motor section should have people or moderators involved that could contribute such sticky's that is reliable information for newb's to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyz39
As Chris points out also, it isnt rocket science, but beyond alot of people wihtout putting the time into a coarse or trade, but some of the finer points of engine building, cam tuning, degreeing, head porting, part selection are, ive only a met few that have a complete and sound understanding of this and most get by with trial and error, more often then not at other people's expense.
Research, research, research. :thumbsup:
there is a big difference between some people who research things on google and tell other people on forums what to do just from other peoples experiences then if someone else that is in the mechanical trade and learn about the stuff everyday. there are alot of people on this forum that say do things this way and select this part but they actually dont know the reason for the way they did it or the part they selected and thats what seperates the E-MECHANICS to the actual real mechanics. alot of people just state the obvious that any other tom dick or harry would know.
How do you know who is an e-mechanic and who isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by delsol9000rpms
If a random person signed up on this board and posted some very good information about B series engines, would you laugh at him and call him an e-mechanic because you don't know any different if his not from a workshop called so and so?
Some of the BEST engine builders in Australia (motorsport industry) are not mechanics.
edit: enough talking about whos a better engine builder or not, get back on topic with some great B series discussion.
i dunoo theres some ppl on here that get off on putting other pplz builds down. lol.
i guess i knoe why other forums talk bout ozhonda.........