Anybody know of a place they would recommend for wheel alignments / balancing in Perth?
I want to see how much of a difference this makes but seeing all the horror stories of steering wheels being not aligned straight etc... I want a recommendation.
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Anybody know of a place they would recommend for wheel alignments / balancing in Perth?
I want to see how much of a difference this makes but seeing all the horror stories of steering wheels being not aligned straight etc... I want a recommendation.
CGSPOT, what tyres are you likely to replace them with?
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Originally Posted by cgspot
Quote:
Originally Posted by V205
Don't know yet...Any suggestions anyone?
Will see them tomorrow to try and finalise this.
I hope....
I decided a long time ago that if I wanted to replace my tyres, C-drives were the way to go. Good recommendations and balance between price and performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by cgspot
Does this problem occur with the 16 inch wheels/tyres on the standard EURO ???
As far as I know, only on the 17" Bridgestones on the Lux.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGBLUE
I would probably go for the C-Drive myself. But I heard the A539 was a better tyre and that the C-Drive have a softer sidewall. But then again... I heard the A509 was better than the A539... and I 'really' liked A509 on my prelude when I had them.
QUOTE=tanalasta;980505]I decided a long time ago that if I wanted to replace my tyres, C-drives were the way to go. Good recommendations and balance between price and performance.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by V205
A509 is an old tyre, a good tyre, but been out for years!
i turned vsa off and planted it coming out of a driveway, got crazy wheel spin, i think the wheel was every so slightly on an angle after that, or maybe it was just my mind.
Use Yokohama Advan AD-07... if it ever gets to Australia.
The Yoko Advan looks good ... however, I've been given no choice of tyre at this stage. They are going to put two new front tyres on ... Bridgestone Non-directional pattern, don't know exactly what tyre at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by euro77
Guess I'll get some time to test run it with the new front tyres and if this rectifies the issue all well and good ... not.
Will then push for the other three tyres.
Had the car in again today
They put two new tyres on the front ... Bridgestone Potenza RE040's
rrrrrrr
I said I'll test it and see....
Drove off, all ok, then heh, it veers to the left .... stop, check the tyre pressure ....
Left Front 38psi and Right Front 39psi
I set them both back to 36psi....
Now .... it actually seems to be allright .... for now!
Gonna test it at speed and wait for another 1000-2000Klms before I pass judgement.
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Originally Posted by cgspot
Theyr'e kidding aren't they?Still if u don't pay for them u don't get any say i suppose.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by cgspot
Not AGAIN..... SSSSSSHISH!
They just wanna waste your time so much until you give up. Works most of the time too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgspot
havent read the entire post but i went from my 16" stockies to 17" (2005) with the bridgestone potenza re040 and i am experiencing drifting to the RIGHT
never used to happen with 16", and started to drive the moment i put the 17" on, also as i slow down, the drifting gets worse and actually pulls the steering wheel a good 40 degrees to there right just as im stopping.
That's an accurate description of what I experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entity
When you are braking, and one wheel happens to be on a patch of road with worse condition, the steering wheel and car will pull to one side.
Entity,i posted the same issue back on page 4 of this thread.You aint alone,except dont expect any help from Honda.I rang and emailed them and they didnt have the courtesy to reply.If you change your rims and tyres,even if they are genuine Lux ones,dont expect Honda to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entity
Aaronng,i think what Entity and i are experiencing with the braking is an abnormality associated with the change in rims and/or tyres.I also drive a '96 Accord over the same uneven surface every second day,and i dont have the problem.Nor did i have it when i was running the 16" rims and non-directional Dunlops on my Euro.
If you brake and you end up with a change in direction, it means one tyre has more grip to the surface than the other. It happens with my car with the 16" Dunlops because of suspension geometry (castor angle for steering return). It probably gets worse with the OEM Bridgestones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avid
this is true, i asked honda directly if installing genuine rims will void the warranty and they confirmed it.
i am now thinking of putting on my stockie rims everytime i go into a service, u never know when u might have a split boot or a loose suspension component that needs fixing.
Entity,i hope Honda wern't trying to imply it will void the 'whole of car' warranty.
That just would'nt be true.I take it you mean they confirmed that the tyres wont be covered by Honda warranty in the situation you and i have put ourselves in by being so impudent as to disregard their advice and run the bigger rims on our Standard model Euros.
Entity has a point though. They might blame your split boot or loose suspension on the heavier rims, which I think is ridiculous.
not the whole car, but basically if you do any kind of "modification" to your stock vehicle they will attribute fault to that as much as they can.. for example if you put on bigger wheels and then one of your shocks blow, they will blame it on the wheels even though it has very little to do with it unless u've cut ur springs.Quote:
Originally Posted by avid
similarly, if you put in a CAI and any engine issues come up, dont expect honda to fix it under warranty.
In my experience it depends on the dealer.some are mod friendly some are wankers about it.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Entity
Reported this problem to the dealer at first service and was advised that there is a known problem with some Accord Euros (MY05 Upgrade) in that they have a drift to the right. It is a problem with the tyres resulting from the wrong tyres being supplied by the manufacturer (American vs Asian spec or something like that).
One would have thought that Honda would issue a notice to dealer on how to identify those wrong type of tyres used.
Or even a recall or some sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monda
After months of complaining about mine, they only replaced the front tyres! Even though they had rotated them front to rear in the trial and error stage and the problem persisted.
This tells me that on the first tyre rotation at a service, the pulling to the right will revisit due to the rear tyres having the same fault. Go figure... Honda....Surely their profit margins aren't that tight....
I would have thought if you put on heavier rims your shocks and brakes have much more work to do. So it is not really outrageous for Honda to deny a blown shock warranty claim if you have 19" heavy chromies. I would say it is entirely fair. Sometimes people double the weight of the rim and tyre package and expect every component to last like OEM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entity
Hmmm. But what do they say is the cause of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
It does seem strange that we are the only market that has 225/45/17 fitted to the various 7" Honda rims sold for the CL9/CL7. Even th Euro R has 215s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monda
They're hoping by dragging their feet long enough(in changing all 4 tyres)that you'll get sick of complaining and go away!!!DON'T.PS.i bet they gave you RE 040s as replacements.How frustrating.:thumbdwn:Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
They admitted it was the tyres. And yes, they replaced the front two..with the same oem type :(
Have you thought about trading in your 3 new Bridgestone tyres now (inc spare in boot) for something different? Or buying 1 more and selling the set on ebay as effectively "new"? The oldest tyre can be your spare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
Something to think about.
Good idea.You'll get a reasonable changover price on a new set of tyres from a good tyre shop.Go to a few and get some quotes,you've got nothing to lose!!Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Thanks guys, but my tyres were changed a couple months ago.
Hello, new here, first post on OzHonda.
I’ve been reading this thread with some interest, and FWIW thought I’d chime in with some thoughts.
Be warned, this is a long meandering post (so long I had to post it in two installments!), probably containing errors, omissions, and in need of a thorough editing. I certainly didn’t intend to write so much, but the TV is boring tonight and I have nothing to read! I hope some find it at least interesting and maybe of some use. I make no claims to always being correct, and all statements are only ‘IMO’!
I’m no expert, but I have some experience with not dissimilar issues, though with racing karts more than cars. At any rate the principles are more or less the same, but keep in mind that karts have no rear geometry adjustments so when I discuss rear end settings I’m speculating to some degree.
With 30 pages (!!!) of posts on this topic I’m surprised nobody has provided full details of their wheel alignments (seems a lot of wheel alignment going on out there!). Someone posted their front camber angles but neglected to specify whether they were negative or positive, so I’m afraid the info is useless beyond telling me that (IMO) there is enough front camber difference on this car to probably cause a pulling problem, one way or the other.
Please post full alignment settings (at least: toe, camber, caster, front and rear where applicable) to see if there might be any alignment anomalies common in these cases.
IMO it would be highly unlikely that all these problems (apparently instances of the same problem) under discussion could be caused by faulty tyres, or tyres of a certain design over another, although it’s quite possible that an underlying problem could be more manifest (i.e. exaggerated) with tyre brand X than tyre brand Y, due to differences in case design (sidewall casing stiffness, tread pattern / depth etc).
Two identical (and properly fitted with reference to the coloured circumferential lines) tyres on the same axle line ought to perform the same regardless of their design, i.e. I can’t see how they could create a pull on their own account (though I’ve been wrong before!).
A clue may lie in the apparent common denominator that most of these problems seem to be strongest with somewhat worn tyres, not discounting that some have had the problem even with new ones.
Ever notice how new tyres tend to make the steering lighter (and less responsive!) than older more worn ones do? This is because the tread blocks distort (‘squirm’) more the taller they are, and as a result a newer tyre will more easily generate a greater slip angle than an identical but more worn tyre (this relates to tyres with tread blocks, not racing slicks).
What I’m suggesting is that there may be an underlying alignment problem(s) that might be somewhat masked by newer tyres, but becomes increasingly apparent as the tyres wear down and become more ‘directional’ (i.e. tend to operate at relatively lower slip angles). I’ve had this problem with a couple of cars I’ve owned, i.e. ‘pulling’ car, fit new tyres, pull (almost) gone, only to return strongly later as tread wears down.
What causes a ‘pull’? The most likely causes are I think:
Unequal camber.
Unequal caster (front).
Unequal (rear) toe.
Tyres (on an axle line) being worn in substantially different amounts / ways, or with significantly different pressures, or tyres of different design or differences in construction (i.e. poor quality control).
Sagged spring, or anything causing a significantly uneven side to side or diagonal weight distribution.
If there is a camber alignment issue that causes a tyre (left to its own devices) to ‘want’ to roll in a curved rather than a straight line then it will do so while creating no slip angle (i.e. camber causes a wheel to ‘steer’ without creating a slip angle), then to steer it straight means you must create a slip angle by ‘forcing’ the wheel away from the direction it ‘wants’ to travel in.
This may be acceptable (if not ideal, i.e. a compromise to an end) if the affect is equal side to side, but not a good thing if unequal. Beyond the annoyance and possible ill handling and directional stability affects, it can contribute to overheating (more of a consideration in a racing application) and to tyre wear (i.e. the tyre is in effect always ‘cornering’ slightly even when the car is travelling in a straight line).
This could conceivably be caused by differences between two apparently identical tyres, but IMO this is very unlikely unless the treads are worn in significantly different ways (which could also be contributing to the problem becoming increasingly worse the older the tyre gets). Different wear could be either one tyre with a lot of tread and the other with less, or one worn ‘flat’ and the other worn ‘tapered’ across the tread.
If faulty tyres (internal differences caused by indifferent quality control) were the culprit (as has been suggested as a possibility with the B/Stones) then it would be logical to assume that we would find the pulling problem divided equally (more or less) between pulls to the left AND to the right, but we seem to have a very, very strong statistical bias here (in an anecdotal sort of way) with pulling to the right. I suspect this alone most probably rules out tyres as the source.
If we assume the tyres are identical on a given car then this leaves only alignment problems, and these include:
Front:
unequal camber, unequal caster (rearward lean of the steering axis), unequal KPI (king pin inclination – the inward lean of steering axis, also known as SAI or steering axis inclination), unequal front ride height.
Note that that when I refer to the ‘steering axis’ that I mean two angles (caster and KPI, being 2 dimensional views of the steering axis from particular perspectives, side and front on) combined as a single line in 3D space.
Rear:
Unequal camber, unequal toe, unequal rear ride height.
Wheelbase shorter / longer side to side may be a problem, but I suspect it would have to be a quite substantial difference.
Toe:
Toe can only cause a pull if the toe problem is at the rear. Even though some wheel alignment sheets will give individual figures for left and right front toe, it’s not actually possible to have unequal front toe as front toe always equalises (relative to the chassis) when travelling in a straight line. This assumes that there is no problem causing a pull, in which case front toe may become unequal as the driver ‘corrects’ it.
What I mean is that because both front wheels can be steered and are connected through the steering linkage, front toe is only relative to the angle between both front wheels and not directly relative to the chassis. On its own front toe cannot cause a pull, but rear toe is a different story. The rear wheels are not free to articulate in a ‘steered’ manner (i.e. rear toe cannot ‘equalise’ relative to the chassis as the toes are fixed) and the toe angle of each rear wheel is thus directly relative to the chassis as much as it is relative to the other rear wheel. Unequal rear toe can probably cause a pull, and can definitely cause the car to ‘crab’ (probably cause a pull because it causes crabbing).
It’s possible that front toe setting might to some degree mask the affect of another problem, just as good tread depth may mask another problem, without eliminating it.
Camber:
Camber creates a condition known as ‘camber thrust’, being the tendency of a cambered wheel to follow a path that is curved in the direction of the camber lean rather than the direction in which it is actually pointing. This is easy to see if you watch a rolling coin, i.e. if the coin is leaning (cambered) it will roll in the direction of the lean.
A cambered wheel will only follow a straight path if subjected to an outside force, e.g. an equal but opposite camber thrust force from the other tyre on its axle line. In this case the wheel will (‘unwillingly’) roll in a straight path, but will generate a slip angle even when the car isn’t cornering.
This is because the axis of rotation (of a cambered wheel) is slanted and intersects the ground at some point to one side of the wheel, and means the wheel is in effect part of a rolling cone (roll a tapered glass and see what happens). If no camber is present then the rolling axis is parallel to the ground and doesn’t intersect with the ground at any point, so the wheel is in effect part of a rolling cylinder, and will naturally roll straight.
If the wheels (at an axle line) are both equally cambered then the camber thrust will be in balance side to side, and the car will track straight (assuming no road camber and no other problems), though it may tend to tramline more the more camber is present.
If one wheel is cambered more than the other then the car will pull in the direction of the strongest camber, e.g. if we have zero camber on the left and some degree of positive camber on the right then the car will pull to the right, or, if we have zero camber on the right and some degree of negative camber on the left then the car will also pull to the right. This may be an issue whether front or rear, but probably more problematic at the front.
Its possible for a car to pull due to unequal weight distribution affecting camber. Imagine a VERY heavy driver in a small softly sprung car; the car sags to the right under the load and gains negative camber on the right front wheel. Theory suggests that this car may now pull to the left because of the RF wheel camber thrust. The RF front may also ‘try’ to point toward the left due to an effect related to caster and scrub radius (see below). In such a situation we may have a pull to the left caused by two different problems created by a single cause (i.e. too much right side weight).
Its possible for a car to have the camber on both sides within spec but to still have a significant problem with unequal camber. For instance the front camber spec for a 90/94 Accord is 0° + or – 1°, so in theory we could have say 1° positive camber on one side and 1° negative on the other and still be within factory spec. However, any wheel alignment tech who thought 2° side to side camber difference was OK would be… not very smart.
End of part 1 (apparently the forum software won't accept anything over 15000 words)
Caster:
Caster has more than one effect. Firstly, by slanting the steering axis backwards it creates another geometry called ‘trail’ (i.e. ‘mechanical’ trail, as opposed to ‘pneumatic’ trail which is a product of tyre case distortion and only of concern with substantially unequal tyre pressures). This means the steering axis intersects the ground at a point that is in front of the centre of the contact patch. Trail can be created by other means allowing more trail with less caster, i.e. having the stub axle located behind the steering axis at stub height, but most cars have the stub located on the steering axis (as viewed from the side).
Trail is what causes shopping trolley ‘casters’ to track straight (yeah, I know… they don’t!), so ‘casters’ are misnamed (they have no caster angle whatsoever!), they should really be called ‘trails’! When we drive a car in reverse the trail is effectively negative, which is why the steering is so unstable when reversing, i.e. the contact patch is ‘in front’ of the steering axis, but ‘wants’ to be behind it.
If caster is unequal side to side then trail will also be unequal and the self centring effect will be unequal and most cars will pull toward the side with greater caster (this may be opposite with cars that have ‘negative scrub radius’).
However, this particular effect (pulling with unequal caster) occurs only in conjunction with ‘scrub radius’, SR being the degree to which the centre of the contact patch is laterally offset from the steering axis at ground level, i.e. extrapolated steering axis intersecting the ground to the front of (trail) and to the inside (SR) of contact patch centre, most commonly. Most cars have positive SR, which places the steering axis to the inside of the contact patch centre point.
Scrub radius is in effect a ‘lever arm’ through which longitudinal forces acting at the contact patch are fed into the steering through the steering axis and on up to the steering wheel (a torque force acting around the steering axis). The greater the scrub radius the more strongly the driver will feel the longitudinal forces generated at each contact patch (when unequal), i.e. the more strongly the driver will feel any difference in the longitudinal forces acting at each contact patch.
This is because the presence of SR effectively means that in order for the front wheels to turn they must also move backward or forward, which is not so much the case if SR is small or zero.
If there were zero scrub radius (not common) then the self aligning effect would still be stronger on one side (if caster etc were unequal) but the driver wouldn’t feel it as each side would ‘share’ all of its self aligning tendency with the other side (if that makes sense, hard to explain!). If a car has negative scrub radius (a few cars, e.g. Holden Camira), then the effect is opposite (neg SR is when the steering axis intersects the ground to the outside of the contact patch centre). Different cars with different scrub radius will react more or less strongly, and possibly in opposite ways to unequal caster angle.
Cars with heavy steering are likely to have (all else being equal) a lot of caster angle / trail and / or a lot of scrub radius.
Note on scrub radius: SR is a nominal geometry, i.e. its value is X on the drawing board and on a perfectly flat road, but if the tyre encounters road camber or other irregularities it value effectively changes (x+ or X-) because the centre of loading on the contact patch moves laterally across the face of the patch as it traverses any irregularity other than a symmetrical bump. The value of SR (X) also changes with any change in camber angle caused by bumps or steering input (caster and KPI cause steered camber changes).
This is a bigger problem with wider treads simply because there is more tread width across which the centre of loading can move. Its this change in effective scrub radius that causes tramlining. Stiffer tyre casings also can make this problem more severe as the tread will conform less readily to the road irregularity.
In some cases the effective scrub radius at a given front wheel can readily change from a positive value to a negative, causing substantial steering problems on rough roads (e.g. Holden Camira’s do this so badly they can unexpectedly rip the steering wheel out of your hands, horrible!). SR is what causes the steering to ‘kickback’ over bumps etc, but does contribute to steering ‘feel’.
Caster also raises the inside front of the chassis with steering input, physically lifting the chassis higher on the side to the inside of the corner. This effect only occurs when there is also SR, and more so with more SR (and greater caster). This also contributes to a self aligning tendency as gravity tries to pull the chassis back to its lowest possible point, which is only possible with the steering at the straight ahead (KPI also does this, though the effect isn’t exactly the same because for a given steered wheel angle KPI lifts the chassis equally on both sides, not more on one side as with caster).
If the chassis is crabbing because of (e.g.) unequal rear toe, then to travel straight the steering must be at some angle, and this will lift the front of the chassis on one side, and this in turn might create a pull.
Front ride height:
Assuming equal lateral weight distribution, if front ride height is significantly different than all three other corners then we can assume that the higher side will be carrying a greater % of front weight, and that the diagonally opposite rear wheel will carry a greater % of rear weight (note: this effect will be stronger with stiffer springs). If we assume that the higher side is the left front, then this wheel will be the heaviest front wheel, and the right rear will be the heaviest rear wheel.
This may (in some degree) counteract unequal lateral front weight distribution caused by (e.g.) driver weight, but we need to keep in mind that it would amplify rear weight differences and may have unwanted affects on camber angles, which may cause problems of their own…
If we assume reasonably even weight distribution, and depending on the values of various geometries, the left front of the chassis being higher may create a tendency to pull to the right. With a positive scrub radius (typical of most cars) and some caster angle there will be a tendency for a weighted wheel (chassis weight) to turn inward around the caster angle of the steering axis as gravity attempts to pull the chassis toward its lowest possible average ride height on both sides. This effect would be strongest at the heavier wheel, thus a pull away from the heaviest front wheel toward the lighter.
Keep in mind that the caster angle is rearward leaning, and that the weight is carried (as an average) in the centre of the contact patch (assuming zero camber), but that the steering axis is offset to the inside of the centre of the contact patch. This creates a tendency for the wheel to ‘want’ to rise (relative to the chassis), and thus to ‘want’ to turn around the caster angle of the steering axis.
With equally weighted wheels this is balanced side to side, but if one wheel is significantly heavier then the effect will be unbalanced and could conceivably cause a noticeable pull. However, I would normally expect this effect to be quite minor unless the side to side weight difference and/or scrub radius and/or caster angle are quite large (e.g. it’s a very strong effect with karts as they use very substantial caster and scrub radius, so if the chassis is twisted they can pull to one side quite badly). Stiffer springs are likely to make this worse.
Some of you mention that the Euro does have a ‘weight jacking’ effect built into the front end, and I have no idea whether it does or doesn’t. It doesn’t seem a good idea to me (especially as millions of cars will track perfectly straight without this!), much better to align the car with driver in situ, like they (should) do with racing cars! If the Euro does have this weight jacking built in then it might be interesting to find what component is responsible (spring, strut mounting, tower height….), and modify it to make the car level and see what happens…?
At any rate this is way too much waffling on and probably more confusing than enlightening. To finish up I’ll relate a little wheel alignment story:
Case study, my car:
A 91 Accord (owned for about a year) that used to pull to the left in a most irritating manner (more so on more worn tyres). Recent alignment showed:
Right caster =1.67°
Left caster =2.83°
Right camber = 1.14° negative
Left camber = 0.16° negative
Right wheelbase = 35mm shorter than left.
I could only conclude accident damage to the right front… bugger!
Not to be defeated, this was initially ‘adjusted’ by means of carefully shortening the right side radius rod by 11mm, which fixed the caster difference and most of the wheelbase difference. Pulling problem improved but still there.
Camber problem then addressed by ‘slotting’ the four inner mounting holes in the left upper wishbone by means of a rat tail file, in effect shortening the left wishbone by 10mm (this may be a bit dodgy in that its now theoretically possible for the wishbone to move on the slotted holes, but the bolts are tight, I’ve used big washers and the forces here are not great, so I’m not worried!).
Result; car now has (near equal) a bit over 1° neg camber and near equal caster both sides, has zero pull and steers / handles as well as can be expected with stock springs and dampers (too soft!!!).
PS Some of you have problems with steering wheel position. Some people don’t seem to mind this, but it drives me to distraction if the wheel isn’t pointing straight!!
Hope this helps:
Assuming the actual alignment is OK, to centralise the steering wheel you need to adjust each tie rod equally to centralise the steering column to the rack. E.g. assuming the steering rack is behind the front axle line, if the steering wheel points to the right then you need to lengthen the left tie rod and shorten the right tie rod by equal amounts (vice versa if the wheel points left, or if the steering rack is in front of the axle line).
If done carefully this won’t change the toe setting to any significant degree, though if the problem is large then it conceivably might (?). First try shortening / lengthening the tie rods by ¼ turn for a small steering wheel misalignment, or half a turn + for larger misalignment.
This is quick and easy to do, and you can access the tie rod adjustment through the wheel arch (at least on my old Accord) just by turning the steering to full lock (don’t even need ramps!). Make sure you mark the tie rods with paint or whatever (and maybe make notes) to keep track of what you’ve done! You probably won’t get it spot on first try, but two or maybe three goes ought to get you there.
I generally agree with the above.
I'm of the belief that the tyres are only the 2ndary problem which exaggerates the underlying problem as well. Well anyway, its because it is much more logical. Luckily someone could explain in more detail than I can.
When he mentioned that NEWER tyres are taller and thus won't have as directional a pull as a more worn tyre, if you compare a 17" tyre profile to a 16" tyre profile, the exact same connection can be made. 17" is lower profile, so it will try to steer the car more than a taller, 16" tyre. Secondly the 17" tyre is wider as well, which again manifests the problem more. For some reason someone disagreed with me before and said the biggest difference between the 16" and 17" inch tyres is the construction and pattern, without taking the 'size and dimensions' of things into perspective. :o
I'm sure there is a fair amount of truth in the last 2 posts but at the end of the day it's not up to the guys that have had the drifting/pulling problem to have to go to such lengths to get the problem fixed.Its Honda Aust.that must do this in depth analysis to sort out the problem not the customer.Its obvious the tyres do not suit the Euro front end setup or whatever you want ot call it so HA should just change the brand/type of tyre for the customers that are having these issues.I dont have the problem cause i changed my tyres from new.I get NO drifting/pulling at all.My car is also lowered,you would think that would make the problem worse.Bottom line HA should just change brand/type of tyre on these problem cars.
Good news! Honda agreed there was a problem with the tyres and replaced both front tyres.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by monda
they replaced with OEM tyres yea? good 4 u man..Quote:
Originally Posted by monda
anyway, is this problem found in 05 upgrade model only? how about 06 or before 05?
Well, i just got my car back from the 10,000km service this morning & at normal driving speed (around 60kph) it still drifts to the right slightly. At <20kph as i'm slowing down at a right-hand bend/corner in the road, the steering wheel pulls heavily to the right.
I was told that they performed a wheel alignment on the car..
Yeah my Euro steering drifted to right as well, even on the straight line. I guess I have to do wheel alignment.
Thats good.The only problem is what happens when at approx.10k you rotate the tyres?Same problem again i'll bet.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by monda
Dead right. HA only replaced my front tyres as well. The local service manager agreed that the problem will return once my rotation is done in the next month. He can't seem to get HA to provide the replacement for the rear two tyres at this time. It should be noted that during the fault finding process some months ago, the tyres were rotated and the problem was the same. Pulling hard to the right. So the current rear tyres are faulty and have been identified by the service manager as such. Interesting warranty policy Honda!Quote:
Originally Posted by tony1234
Out of interest what brand of tyres did they give you?RE040s i'll bet.:thumbdwn: :thumbdwn: :thumbdwn:Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
Correct. Its like throwing petrol on a fire to put it out...
Dickheads.I suggest you trade the 2 new ones you have and the spare(which should be new)and get 4 new tyres (another brand of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
Did you guys know that roads are not horizontally prefect? They are more of a triangular shape.
Had 10k service. Back tyres were put on the front. It pulls to the right again. Waiting for HA to do something about it..... It is like herding cats!!
Surprise surprise!!!!:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
New tyres getting fitted tomorrow. I had no choice on the type due to it being a warranty job. Getting a wheel alignment as well.
Does anyone think that having faulty tyres on the rear of the car, which are tracking to the right, would have some effect on the car? Even on the rear? I am asking because when you get a wheel alingment, the rear wheels are done, so I am thinking it must have some bearing on the cars tracking. Any thoughts?
Some tyres, especially uni-directional ones like the REO40's do track slightly on one side. Tyre manufacturers sometimes draw a line to indicate which side the tyre tends to drift towards and the trick is finding the same tyre in a different batch that drifts slightly to the other side. If you luck out then the tyre may drift.
Hmm... then again - everybody's car seems to drift to the right.
Mine stopped being a problem (don't know what happened) and after the last wheel alignment and balancing it tracks perfectly straight.
I suggest after you get the 2 new tyres go to a good tyre shop and trade them in(inc the spare which should be new!)on a set of new tyres,obviously another brand.Sure it'll cost you a bit(maybe $200 i guess) but you'll have better tyres and no more bullshit drifting issues.Just my opinion.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogler
New tyres fitted. Had an alingment done too. The car is driving like a new car should finally! It is now tracking perfectly. Now on Monday I will insist they replace the spare tyre as well.
Mine was drifting badly to right and of course they only replaced the front two tyres after a lot of mucking around (which did fix the problem). Then at the 10,000 service I asked that they swap the old backs onto the fronts and the drifting came back. They have given me two new fronts today (4 in all now) and I need some time to see if the drifting has gone away. Yes they are same Re040's but assure me that these tyres have a Neutral Bias whereby the old one's had a Positive Bias, (However, I can't find anything about positive, neutral or negative bias in tyres to explain it)
However, it might have a lot to do with "runout" see: http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
The standard Dunlops on the standard 16 x 6.5 rims fitted to my car were great but the car tended to wander in all directions at high speed (180km/h+ in Northern Territory before much hated 130km/h speed limit introduced). I contacted Whiteline Suspensions and, as I had done with my previous car, I sent them my original rear anti-sway bar so that they could make a stiffer bar (that they now sell it to other CL9 owners). The new bar made little difference to straight-line stabilty at high speed but it sure gave a nicer turn-in to corners! I had tried Performance Rebel 17 x 7 wheels with 45mm offset with Bridgestone RE040 tyres but the car tramlined as no car should. I thought that the problem might be caused by the 45mm offset (55mm standard). I then purchased a set of the current 10(?) spoke Euro Luxury 17 x 7 wheels. I fitted the used RE040 from the borrowed Rebel rims but the tramlining persisted. I fitted new Dunlop SportMaxx 225/45R17 tyres ($288 each). Great tyre. Tramlining reduced substantially. I don't think it is the tyres that cause the tramlining but rather how worn-out the tyres are. As far as the "positive, neutral or negative bias " goes, they must be talking about the suspension toe (positive, neutral or negative bias ). Should be neutral at front and toe-in of 2mm at rear.
If you definatley want less tramlining you should try something with softer sidewalls - I also found improvement moving to a non-directional tyre (but that could be tyre specific rather than a general rule)Quote:
Originally Posted by SPQR
Sorry all for not being here for a while, alot has happened to me since (moved house, No internet, plus very busy with work, stress over my car drifting etc. etc.)
I pushed Honda hard about this problem, and had a meeting with
[yfin edit *** edited name of the person you met at Honda as you have called them a not so pleasant word...]
He couldn't answer my question..........If they fixed the problem which they assured me they did ("NOT"), then what was the CAUSE ?
All he gave me was umm, this, umm, that....pfft what a loser couldn't lie if his life depended on it.
These guys at Honda are all bummies, they colaborate with each other, so they get there stories straight, yes they are one big happy family at Honda Aust & dealerships......
I can tell you that Honda are pushing sales, at what ever cost.....and RE-CALLS are a BIG NO NO.
Anyhow Leigh offered me tyres out of a good will gesture, which I accepted reluctantly, but what the heck these guys caused me grief so F*%# 'em....
Drove the car like that for a while, after being to many steering and suspension places to talk about my problems, tried some things, still no good.
They all put it down to tyres, by the way.....
I had noticed that one of the places I had took my car too had pumped my front tyres to 36 psi (hard). Someone had mentioned this in a previous post.
Wasn't as bad but still very noticable still, drove it for a while like that until I put new springs in my car (lowered, Eibachs) then was getting great big thuds on bad bumps, checked tyre pressure, found it was too much put it back to 30-32psi problem went away, but pulling to the right was back as it was before Very Very bad!!!
My steering wheel is still out after so many 1000's of attempts....my steering straightens when road cambers to the right, funny huh?
All this grief this car has caused me :(
If anyone is thinking of buying a euro think twice trust me not worth it
Customer satisfaction you reckon....Worst iv'e come accross.
Anyway I went to claim my new tyres only because I am going through a process of elimination, (change the tyres see what happens) you never know.
They told me that leigh had "hit it on the head" and his good will gesture flew out the door, because I had not taken it up before that my car must be running fine, so i didn't need them. What a loser !!
Well stay tuned for a new thread called "KNOW YOUR HONDA DEALER" as I will be giving detailed information on my dealership and it's staff, time to name names, Ozhonda style !!!!
If you are in Victoria please call this person as he is the one who has last word on your car.
Honda Australia District Service Manager
Southern Region
Leigh McNamara
Direct phone number 92855570
Mobile number 0419 336 183
email leighm@honda.com.au
It's got to be those piece of shit RE040s:thumbdwn: (or they're largely to blame).Ive got the same car as you (06 man lux with 17s).The day after i bought my car i changed the RE040s for Conti sport contact 2s.15k later NO pulling/drifting at all!!!Plus i have aftermarket rims(17s)lowered,Bilstein/Eibach shocks/springs and i'm running 40psi in the tyres.Ride those pricks hard,get a set of new tyres(RE040s i'll bet they'll give you)as soon as you get them fitted go to a tyer place that sells decent tyres and trade them in for something else(Dunlop Sport Maxx i hear are good)and i'll bet your problems will be over!Let us know how you go!Quote:
Originally Posted by LXRY
Nah you can't do that if you want to "name and shame" as we can't have any potentially defamatory comments on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by LXRY
This gives you no comfort but I just rotated my tyres last week at 45,000kms and now I am getting a drift to the right (never had that before - had some drift to the left previously but never to the right). Tyres are 15,000kms old. Of perhaps some interest - the tyres I have are non-directional so I did a diaganol switch rather than front to back like you would do with the OEM tyres. I wonder whether the left to right has highlighted differences in tread wear between the two sides (differences not visible from what I can see).
I am putting it down to tyre wear and wheel alignment at this stage as it has been a good 15,000kms since an alignment. Running aftermarket rims with Dunlop 3000A tyres. Not doing anything at this stage to rectify as I will need an alignment after I fit an Ingalls camber kit anyway. I also think if I run the tyres down in the new configuration it may correct itself.
32 pages in this thread so far. Sounds like a real and serious problem that Honda is ignoring.
Car manufacturers/importers divide and conquer like any other business focused on the bottom line: By continually denying the existence of a problem and, where individual owners make something of it, they blame something else, like the tyres.
Curious that Honda continues to fit Bridgestone RE040's to the Luxury. If the problem is the tyres, then they wouldn't be fitting the same tyre OE. Therefore, the problem is more likely to be suspension design. That means Honda would have to fix it. Good enough reason to deny that there is a problem. Imagine the cost of a recall.
Companies, like governments, also use the privacy laws to stifle debate. By dividing people so that they don't know that others are experiencing the same situation, they have better control.
They did not count on the Internet providing discussion fora. Although anyone following the proposed web content laws would see that the Australian Government, to appease big business and their own government ends, are attempting to censor the internet.
If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth. Everyone should read George Orwell's book "1984". It's where we get our "Orwellian" expressions from; like "Big Brother is watching."
I suspect that a stock brand new Euro has -1 or -2mm toe in on the right wheel just to get the car to drive straight. When you do an alignment, the tyre shop puts it back to 0mm and you end up with pulling to the right.
BTW, I just did an alignment, and my car pulled to the right, with the steering wheel pointing to the left to keep the car going straight (I have 16" stock Dunlops). Putting in -0.3mm almost solved all the pulling to the right, but the steering wheel still points slightly to the left.
I wonder if 32 pages is close to a record number of posts on the OzHonda site for one particular problem. Mabye one of the mods can let us know.
Another course of action about this issue might be for us to tell Honda Australia that we intend to try and get the story into the media.They might not give a "fig",but then again, it aint going to help sales is it.
I wouldn't be interested in going to the media- to be honest with you it doesn't really bother me that much. I watch the road - not where I am holding the steering wheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by avid
If someone is really peeved about this I would recommend you find a shop that is prepared to test different alignment settings outside the Honda specs. eg - why not try the TSX alignment settings? - very few of them complain about any pulling or drifting. I would also be surprised if a place like Whiteline couldn't solve this.
Yeah, at 0mm - 0mm, my left wheel pointed straight, while my right wheel pointed a few mm out to the right. Tell them to put -1mm or so on the right wheel to compensate. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by yfin
Not sure if the TSX's are not having this problem.Ive had one of the US forum members PM me about our problem in Aust.It seems that mabye they didnt have the problem in earlier(pre 2006) models,but now somethings changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avid
Yes I totally agree the media should be involved as a last resort. We missed the boat though (International Motor Show and Grand Prix. Honda showed some "Ruthless Marketing")
I personally think that OzHonda, If they don't mind, should contact Honda Japan and Honda Aust. ( Starting from the the executive level at Honda Aust. and to the excecutive level at Honda Japan ) about this issue, explaining to them that their reputation of "Honda Reliability" in Australia is being tainted and that the marketing they are doing here in Aust. won't work if all aspects of of the chain arn't fulfilled.....
For example:
The Product it self ---> Manufacturing of the product ---> Marketing of the product ---> And of course "Customer Satisfaction of the product" which is the last link and the most important of them all !!
Without customer satisfaction the rest are all a waste of time and money. This causes a trickle effect on future sales because the majority of buyers in the future will be " US " the customer who already own one or more of their product(s) and are satisfied with it, which in turn will make us buy again if we are satisfied with it, not too mention others along the way as word spreads of satisfaction of their product mainly by us, mind you.
At the moment with the amount of competition in the motoring industry, there isn't much room for error.
Toyota has built a solid customer base and so has Mazda which is Hondas main rival....
Mazda2 vs Jazz
Mazda3 vs Civic
Mazda6 vs Accord
RX8 vs Integra Type S
MX5 vs S2000
Tribute vs CRV
CX7 and CX9 vs MDX.
Not too far behind is Hyundi, Subaru, Ford and all those European cars...and last on the list is Mitsubishi and Holden which by the way is hanging on by a thread (lucky for the Holden Ute otherwise....... :wave: lol)
I am going to contact the relevant authorities (consumer affairs and vicroads) and I'd ask the rest of the euro owners with the same symptoms, to do so too, PLEASE !! This is a SAFETY ISSUE !! At 4000klm-5000klm my car was looking for the nearest power pole (No exageration)
I have raised a safety issue with comsumer affairs before with success, not only for my success but for the success of SAFETY for fellow consumers as well, it is our responsabilty to do so as we are the consumer.
I will post relevant authority details in the next couple of days.
;)
Quote "Yeah, at 0mm - 0mm, my left wheel pointed straight, while my right wheel pointed a few mm out to the right. Tell them to put -1mm or so on the right wheel to compensate. "
It seems to me that a number of people are having a problem getting the steering wheel back to the straight ahead position after dealers/tyre shops have played around trying to fix the drift problem.I dont know why,its not normally a big deal with good alignment machines and experienced front end mechanics,but i see a number of posts complaining about it from time to time.It makes me reluctant to let anybody play around with my car,because if there's one thing that bothers me as much as the drifting,its an 'off centre' steering wheel.
The suggestion to change the toe on the right wheel seems a logical step,but why havnt some of these places (including Honda Aus) already tried it. Mabye they have???Has anybody out there done it with any success ?
Has anyone contacted Whiteline and see if they have anything to say about this?
Can't believe this is still going.
We should let Jenson Button drive our Euros. He can complain to Honda for us and for his F1 car design problems. :eek:
Process started
Consumer Affairs contacted online safety form lodged !!
Victoria
http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256...ke+a+complaint
N.S.W http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ic...thandling.html
Queensland
http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/of...nous+Documents
(Go to the bottom of the page and look for "Lodge a complaint" button)
A.C.T
http://www.fairtrading.act.gov.au/Co..._complaint.htm
S.A.
http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/consumerad...s/lodging.html
N.T.
http://www.nt.gov.au/justice/graphpa...disputes.shtml
Tasmania
http://www.consumer.tas.gov.au/produ...and_complaints
W.A
http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/motor_veh...tion=servicing
Some states don't offer online safety forms but some do.
Next is review sites such as RACV, carsguide.com.au, drive.com.au etc
I will keep in touch.
I think the SIMPLEST and EASIEST things to resolve this is for Honda Australia to change all the tyres of 17" Euro with RE040 to something that doesn't exhibit the problem.
Because it has already been proven that same car with 16" stock rims and tyres + 17" rims with aftermarket tyres DO NOT have the same pulling issue.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by V205
Changed my tyres too michelin preceda II still pulling to the right......can anyone give me any other suggestions plz...getting desperate now. That was my nightmare come true, damn it...pulling not as severe but evident, might have something to do with higher side wall on michelin's, not sure.......I can't believe the dealership's as well denial, denial....have i been flagged or something...every dealer telling me no pulling problem, and is normal for my car to follow camber of the road.....IS THIS NORMAL....YEAH RIGHT MY CAR HITS AUTO PILOT ON RIGHT TURNS WITH CAMBER, I DONT EVEN HAVE TO TURN MY STEERING WHEEL ON RIGHT TURNS, UNDER CAMBER...:( :( :( TAKES THE TURN BY IT SELF....IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL FOLLOWING CAMBER AND WHY DOESN'T IT FOLLOW CAMBER TO THE LEFT ????? AT ALL??????
Definetly not bridgestones RE040.
Although i must state that, bridgestone REO40's are pretty shit. I am getting better ride (smoother), NO tram tracking AT ALL with the preceda's, feels like I have nike air max on my car now. Even absorbs bumps better, where as REO40's shit on pot holes and big bumps....
Get the Ingalls rear camber kit like I suggested. My car was pulling right very hard (enough to get you to change direction from a left lane change to a right lane without your hand on the wheel) after lowering by 1" because of the obscene amount of rear camber and incorrect rear toe. After getting the kit installed and realigned to factory specs, my car drives straight.
Sorry to hear you still have the drifting/pulling issue,what a pain in the arse.Try a rear camber kit like Aaron suggested(i've got one of these)otherwise a good alignment shop,in the meantime keep on HA case.Ring/email on a regular basis,keep at them,they'll do something just to get rid of you.Anyway good luck!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LXRY
First of all: understand that the car has pretty direct steering.
Most people complain about cars that have vague steering!
The Euro tramlines; some cars do, especially the more sporty ones.
I really think this "issue" isn't that much of an issue and has got blown completely out of proportion in this thread.
The first thing is to check your tyre pressures -- and LOWER them!
Increasing tyre pressures will increase tramlining. More pressure means harder tyre, means more likely to be thrown off line. Softer tyre pressures act like a cushion.
Perhaps start with the tyre pressures recommended in the manual -- there's a reason why manufacturers recommend tyre pressures -- because they've checked what works best for the car!
It pulls to the side on 4-lane freeways where the road doesn't have grooves. Also, roads slant to the left, so the car should pull to the left. Mine pulled to the RIGHT after lowering without a rear alignment.
I have Bilstein/Eibach combo,lowered of course,conti sport contact 2 tyres set at 38-40psi.I do have some tramlining on uneven roads but NO drifting/pulling at all.I was told by my tyre shop that the recommended pressures are too low.They tell me they regularly get euros with the tyres prematurely worn on the outsides and the owners can't understand why they need a set of new tyres after 20k!!or less!!They suggest 4psi extra all round.I think it's a combination of OEM tyres and alignment settings.BTW i have an 06.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobster
My first set of tyres wore badly on the inside edge. After 24,000km, I was upgrading from 16s (and the stock Dunlops) to 17s, but my tyre shop told me that one rear tyre was bordering on illegal from the tread wearing on the inner edge, and the other wasn't looking too healthy either (despite both having plenty of tread left in the centre, and a reasonable amount left on the outside).Quote:
Originally Posted by tony1234
I give my car a bit of stick occasionally, but I've never had premature wear like this before. The tyre shop put it down to the Euro's suspension geometry, and suggested they have a propensity to start chewing through rubber - particularly at the rear - if alignments aren't performed at least once every 10,000km or so.
Was your car lowered? If your car was stock, there is not much they can adjust in the rear in terms of alignment. So they were just trying to get you to come back more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by aday