Weighing up pros and cons: AUDM DC2r/DC5r versus AUDM S15 200sx

First of all, I love my Hondas, so don't flame me for this thread.

I know that in the reliability stakes, Honda > Nissan, but as a motoring enthusiast, I'm open to all options. DC5r/s15/WRX of the same age are on the same level when it comes to age and price range. I am a bit old fashioned when it comes to performance cars, and IMO a coupe is much nicer to have than a sports sedan. Furthermore, the WRX comes with a stigma attached + turbo lag/agricultural soundtrack and bland styling.

IMO, the s15 and the DC5r have nice, clean, modern looks, even though the type r is less common, making it more of a cult car. Both have great potential for mods (less so the DC2r).

The purpose of this thread is to get informed and educated opinions, and not opinionated burnings, as I'll be in the market for a new car of this age in the latter half of this year.

Decent links/articles will receive rep points, and so will unbiased reports and comparisons concerning reliability/things to look out for when buying these vehicles/insurance and maintainence costs etc.. I do have a pretty good knowledge of these vehicles, but I want to hear your 0.2

Peace out to everyone at OH,

Mike:honda:

I think if you are going to mod each car with the same amount of money, you'll get more bang for buck if you do spend the same ona S15.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r3ckless

I think if you are going to mod each car with the same amount of money, you'll get more bang for buck if you do spend the same ona S15.

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True, the AUDM s15 is very under tuned, especially compared to the JDM version. Not so much the DC5r.

What's faster? Stock vs Stock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noobcake

What's faster? Stock vs Stock

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Not too much difference, I would say that the s15 has the edge, torque wise anyway. ITR is lighter.

On paper: Nissan 200sx: (s15)

Power: 147kW @ 6400rpm
Torque: 265Nm @ 4800rpm
Approx weight: 1265

DC5r:

Power: 147kW @ 7400rpm
Torque: 192Nm @ 6000rpm
Approx Weight: 1160

It depends on your launch, but ultimately, it really depends on the driver, as well as condition of the car etc...

Mod for mod the S15 will definately be better than a DC2R/DC5R, you'll get much higher gains if you spent the same money on an S15 compared to a DC5R.

Personally I like the look of the S15 better over the DC5R, but that's just personal preference.

i'm honestly surprised you haven't given your opinion on the most obvious thing that stands out to me when looking at your 3 options...do you prefer rear, front or four wheel drive? considering you said you're fairly knowledgeable and you have your mind set on one of them, i think it would come down to what drive type you desire. if you've always driven honda's, why not try a rear-wheel drive? i think the silvia would beat the dc5r in a straight line, even aus-spec, but wouldn't you just go jap spec?

anway, what cars have you had in the past? if you've had some decent honda's, i reckon go the s15. if you've had stock-ish, non-type-r's, then maybe go the dc5r so that you can have an enhanced experience of what you've always loved.

From what I have heard from s15 owners they are very fragile cars and are prone to things going to wrong down the line, where as the dc2r/dc5r are not.....For reliability go the dc5r but for speed and sleekness go the s15.

i remember one of the mainstream motoring magazines (wheels/motor) had a review head to head for the S15 vs the DC5, might be worthwhile trying to track one of these down

my 2c

Reliability wise we know the answer
Looks is a personal thing
mod for mod the S15 will be better, but will also affect reliability

really depends what you want to do with the car also?

i used to own both dc2r and s15 spec 4 gt at the same time
both stock - in the end i kept the dc2r

reason being it was more of a drivers car and it was simply more fun to drive..
i loved the sharp cornering, short throw of the gear box, snug recaros, reliability and also the efficiency on fuel
insurance for both were high and maintenance was pretty much the same

once you start modding though - thats another story....
bang for buck is definately with the s15

again it is what you want outta the car at the end of the day..

I have owned a modified 2002 wrx which was faster than the sti and have owned a race preped dc2r and a stock dc2r. I would take the stock dc2r any day. I have also owned an mx5 which is a rwd drivers car and I enjoyed the drivability of the dc2r slightly more.

Here's my opinion man, I've owned all three cars (DC2R, S15 and DC5R) in that order.

What you really have to look at is what you want in the car. My S15 had just a touch under 200rwkw, which I built from the ground up just after selling my DC2R to a mate. It was an absolute straight line weapon, got sideways easily and was a pretty fun car to drive. All was well and good, until I drove the DC2R I'd sold to my mate once again a few months later. It was then I realised that the S15 gearbox felt notchy and fragile and the interior was cheap (I had an 02 SpecR GT). The DC2R steering was just so precise, the gear shifts on the Honda (which was 2 year OLDER than the S15) just felt so smooth.... it's hard to describe, but the car was just SO much more fun to drive than my S15 with double the wheel kilowatts. Anyone who owns or has owned a DC2R I'm sure will agree with me here! My S15 had coilovers, swaybars, bracing, the works, so it's not like I neglected suspension tuning.

I had originally decided to sell the DC2R because I was sick of the lack of low down torque and having to hit vtec just to merge lanes in front of a commodore off the lights. As a daily driver (like all my cars have been) it was just starting to grate and I just felt like a change.

So I sold the S15 and picked up a mint 02 CW DC5R from NSW. The moment I jumped in the car, I knew I wanted it! The gear shifts felt even nicer than the DC2, it had plently of low range torque and you could really feel the research and development that was put into the car. Both the S15 and the DC5R being 2002 models, I didn't think they would be so many worlds apart, but the DC5R really did make the S15 feel like it had been thrown together from spare parts by Nissan.

At the end of the day, it will end up being your personal choice. Straight line power RWD or a fun and precise FWD. Before the DC2R I owned a 180sx and an R33 Series 2, so I'm definitely not one sided when it comes to Nissan and Honda.

As far as insurance goes, both cars were roughly the same, if I had gotten a jap-spec S15 it would have cost more. 2-door coupes will always be expensive though, so there's no real escaping it whether you're turbo or NA.

Things to look out for... the
-S15s almost always have a scratched up centre console and it's hard to find a clean example with so many 99 Jap spec models going around.
-Make sure all mods have been done properly and if the turbo has been replaced, make sure it isn't a KKR piece of junk and that the car has been tuned to the new turbo. If it is a bigger turbo and the car doesn't have an aftermarket tuned ECU, walk away.
-If it has a FMIC, is it cut through the battery tray neatly? Is the piping on the turbo side larger than the turbo inlet? This will cause laaaaaag.
-Make sure the gearbox doesn't crunch.. the S15 6-speed is a piece of crap.

For the DC5
-Make sure the oil's at the correct level to see if eats any.
-Make sure it doesn't blow white smoke on vtec.
-Check for general oil leaks, mine had a drive shaft seal leaking.
-If it has coilovers, have they been set up properly? Some people are stupid enough to not bother with a wheel alignment after.

I guess I could go on forever... I'm sure others on here will be able to tell you more about the issues with DC5Rs and DC2Rs. Or just give it a search, I'm pretty sure I've seen threads on the topic before. I hope what I've written about my own experience helps with the decision man.

Morning all,

In answer to your questions, what I'm after is an out-of the box performance car that can also be a good daily. I want a car that has good straight line acceleration, good seats and handling which I intent to use as a daily drive, as well as an exciting streeter and something that's good for winding mountain roads on the weekends. I've never been out on the track, but when I buy one of these, I would like to attend a few (or many, depending on how hooked I get) track days.

I also want a car which will have good resale value and is relatively cheap to run/insure. I'm not into imports for these reasons. Don't flame me for this, but I don't wanna car that'll be a money pit. I don't like spending too much on mods. I'm only interested in basic bolt-ons (I/H/E, maybe suspension and ECU). I wanna car that I can return to stock later and recoup some cash. I know that I can do this with both cars.

I guess i might sound like I'm asking a lot, aren't I?


As far as my experience goes, I've driven various performance cars (NA MX-5/s14/WRX/BA XR6/DC2/DC5) and I believe that as long as the car is well set up suspension wise, I don't care if it's RW or FWD. Too many people get hung up on this and the RWD vs FWD debate has been done to death. Although I like the sport, I'm not a drifting fanboy either.

As far as the cars I've owned though, they've mostly been 4 pot FWD bangers. My current car is an EM1, and it's the best car I've owned so far. It's almost time to step it up to something better, hence the reason for this thread.

In the past I've done basic mods and servicing myself. I don't usually attempt big jobs, but (like all of us) I am learning and my list of tools is growing.

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I guess after some though the DC5r is more of an out-of-thebox performance car (recaros/suspension set up/transmission), but the s15 sounds like a good daily (softer)proposition. I'm still open to all of your views.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisSX

Here's my opinion man, I've owned all three cars (DC2R, S15 and DC5R) in that order.

What you really have to look at is what you want in the car. My S15 had just a touch under 200rwkw, which I built from the ground up just after selling my DC2R to a mate. It was an absolute straight line weapon, got sideways easily and was a pretty fun car to drive. All was well and good, until I drove the DC2R I'd sold to my mate once again a few months later. It was then I realised that the S15 gearbox felt notchy and fragile and the interior was cheap (I had an 02 SpecR GT). The DC2R steering was just so precise, the gear shifts on the Honda (which was 2 year OLDER than the S15) just felt so smooth.... it's hard to describe, but the car was just SO much more fun to drive than my S15 with double the wheel kilowatts. Anyone who owns or has owned a DC2R I'm sure will agree with me here! My S15 had coilovers, swaybars, bracing, the works, so it's not like I neglected suspension tuning.

I had originally decided to sell the DC2R because I was sick of the lack of low down torque and having to hit vtec just to merge lanes in front of a commodore off the lights. As a daily driver (like all my cars have been) it was just starting to grate and I just felt like a change.

So I sold the S15 and picked up a mint 02 CW DC5R from NSW. The moment I jumped in the car, I knew I wanted it! The gear shifts felt even nicer than the DC2, it had plently of low range torque and you could really feel the research and development that was put into the car. Both the S15 and the DC5R being 2002 models, I didn't think they would be so many worlds apart, but the DC5R really did make the S15 feel like it had been thrown together from spare parts by Nissan.

At the end of the day, it will end up being your personal choice. Straight line power RWD or a fun and precise FWD. Before the DC2R I owned a 180sx and an R33 Series 2, so I'm definitely not one sided when it comes to Nissan and Honda.

As far as insurance goes, both cars were roughly the same, if I had gotten a jap-spec S15 it would have cost more. 2-door coupes will always be expensive though, so there's no real escaping it whether you're turbo or NA.

Things to look out for... the
-S15s almost always have a scratched up centre console and it's hard to find a clean example with so many 99 Jap spec models going around.
-Make sure all mods have been done properly and if the turbo has been replaced, make sure it isn't a KKR piece of junk and that the car has been tuned to the new turbo. If it is a bigger turbo and the car doesn't have an aftermarket tuned ECU, walk away.
-If it has a FMIC, is it cut through the battery tray neatly? Is the piping on the turbo side larger than the turbo inlet? This will cause laaaaaag.
-Make sure the gearbox doesn't crunch.. the S15 6-speed is a piece of crap.

For the DC5
-Make sure the oil's at the correct level to see if eats any.
-Make sure it doesn't blow white smoke on vtec.
-Check for general oil leaks, mine had a drive shaft seal leaking.
-If it has coilovers, have they been set up properly? Some people are stupid enough to not bother with a wheel alignment after.

I guess I could go on forever... I'm sure others on here will be able to tell you more about the issues with DC5Rs and DC2Rs. Or just give it a search, I'm pretty sure I've seen threads on the topic before. I hope what I've written about my own experience helps with the decision man.

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Thanks for the post, it's good to hear the opinion of someone who's owned all 3 cars.:thumbsup: I just don't know why Nissan's quality lags behind. Thanks for buying tips as well. When I buy cars, I always buy stockers owned by mature owners, and as far as the s15 is concerned, the selection of ones like that is few and far between.

advantage, if you were to spin a bearing in an sr20det, pretty easy to find a decent replacement for a good price compared to if you were to damage anything on the ITR

the wrx is the same, heaps of good halfcuts for them around for reasonable money if need be

ITR problems:
possible theft of the damn badges
possible theft of seats
expensive engine to repair
expensive panels to repair
costs associated with the maintainace of a performance Honda (hiked insurance for young drivers is a prime example)

Advantages:
trunk space
leg room
wont go into too many more examples

S15 problems:
the demographic and previous owners of some
lack of history to most
oil circulation (sump size for one)
weak gearbox in comparison to earlier models (find one with a s13/s14 gearbox in 5spd) (or if possible get the jdm spec s with the 5spd)
trunk space (eskies have problems fitting)
rear seating is a joke
possible risk of theft
shitty intake manifold compared to the redtop sr20det (I can use the honda oil filter tool on it and remove it from the top with ease, but when the type x came out they fked up the design), -which is why sooo many people have a/m filter relocator kits
disassembles with great ease
more people are making cheaper 2jz conversion kits for them (the perfect car, reliability at last :))

advantages:
better head than the s13 redtop
decent cam profiles compared to older sr20det redtop
cheap motors for when it spins a bearing
decent turbo stock over previous silvias
cheaper bolt on parts
the position of bushes, best stock suspension I've driven in a jap car great balance
comes turboed factory (no need to even think of boosting a honda)
tight gears, awesome ratio, sits on the highway alot nicer than an integra

wrx:
problems:
find a billet driveshaft supplier
upgrade gearbox
you can easily fk the rear diff by using the spare wheel for extended periods of time (more than a few days) on the earlier models
buy the newest one you can afford
easily stolen (earlier models)
the early automatic versions will stay on boost when you put the pedal down without going into vacuum causing the lil snail to glow white, spirited runs more than an hour will cause great amounts of heat, lol
changing spark plugs
boxer engine oil flow (make sure the oil is up to the mark all the time)
tappet noise if using non subaru oil filters and decent oil (early models)
owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

advantages:
great storage in pre-airbag models (no airbag so storage there and all over the dash)
the control when off road on goat tracks
the sound
great seats
the ra models
drives like it's on rails
will over take and lane hop with great ease into tight gaps (if need be)
good standard options from factory

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK1.6LCIV

advantage, if you were to spin a bearing in an sr20det, pretty easy to find a decent replacement for a good price compared to if you were to damage anything on the ITR

the wrx is the same, heaps of good halfcuts for them around for reasonable money if need be

ITR problems:
possible theft of the damn badges
possible theft of seats
expensive engine to repair
expensive panels to repair
costs associated with the maintainace of a performance Honda (hiked insurance for young drivers is a prime example)

Advantages:
trunk space
leg room
wont go into too many more examples

S15 problems:
the demographic and previous owners of some
lack of history to most
oil circulation (sump size for one)
weak gearbox in comparison to earlier models (find one with a s13/s14 gearbox in 5spd) (or if possible get the jdm spec s with the 5spd)
trunk space (eskies have problems fitting)
rear seating is a joke
possible risk of theft
shitty intake manifold compared to the redtop sr20det (I can use the honda oil filter tool on it and remove it from the top with ease, but when the type x came out they fked up the design), -which is why sooo many people have a/m filter relocator kits
disassembles with great ease
more people are making cheaper 2jz conversion kits for them (the perfect car, reliability at last :))

advantages:
better head than the s13 redtop
decent cam profiles compared to older sr20det redtop
cheap motors for when it spins a bearing
decent turbo stock over previous silvias
cheaper bolt on parts
the position of bushes, best stock suspension I've driven in a jap car great balance
comes turboed factory (no need to even think of boosting a honda)
tight gears, awesome ratio, sits on the highway alot nicer than an integra

wrx:
problems:
find a billet driveshaft supplier
upgrade gearbox
you can easily fk the rear diff by using the spare wheel for extended periods of time (more than a few days) on the earlier models
buy the newest one you can afford
easily stolen (earlier models)
the early automatic versions will stay on boost when you put the pedal down without going into vacuum causing the lil snail to glow white, spirited runs more than an hour will cause great amounts of heat, lol
changing spark plugs
boxer engine oil flow (make sure the oil is up to the mark all the time)
tappet noise if using non subaru oil filters and decent oil (early models)
owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

advantages:
great storage in pre-airbag models (no airbag so storage there and all over the dash)
the control when off road on goat tracks
the sound
great seats
the ra models
drives like it's on rails
will over take and lane hop with great ease into tight gaps (if need be)
good standard options from factory

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Nice post (and I like ur new Avatar)

Good info, except, like i said, I'm not even going to consider a WRX. Not at all a fan .

Thanks Ryan :)

The s15 gearboxes, even when new were known to be a bit notchy and a bit grumpy. Like I said earlier, I've driven an s14a, and it had a satisfactory feel and action. I'm yet to drive an s15 and try the 'box.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EK1.6LCIV

owning one will make you want a B4
blue is extremely bad luck

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Hey Ryan,

What exactly do u mean by these two comments?

Do u mean want a B4 Legacy? Is that the next logical progression for Subaru fans?

Any why is Blue bad luck?

I found this: http://www.itrsport.com/reviews.html
Nice resource of scanned DC2r related articles.

Click on Wild At Heart, Motor Magazine, Jan 2001. The article puts the bug eye WRX against the s15 and DC2r.

This is another good Aussie article from that database. Click on Bang For Your Bucks, Motor, October 2000. It pits the DC2r against other (mostly less potent performance cars, including the WRX.)

good info here

sub'd

need to rep ppl as well!

I have a 02 dc5r and my brother owns a 200sx spec r. I must say the gearshift and steering in the integra is much much more precise. Whilst both cars are the same age, the silvia is a little older in terms of the age of the model And it definately shows it ( especially interior wise). Whilst I really like the low seating position of the silvia, I find the integra much more comfortable to drive. The silvia feels like it rides much harder In the rear. All in all both are excellent cars, I did find though that the silvia is a little much in the wet as a daily, with the tail being extremely touchy.

Stock for stock both cars are so close comparison straight line wise it's a non issue. So for me, the newer feeling of the integra and it's better driveability as a daily tip it in favour. And the far cheaper insurance premium, almost 900 annually difference (as a 23 yr old) certainly helps!

tell us what your budget 1st
then we can help you out more

because prices of these cars are greatly different

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Originally Posted by 90LAN

tell us what your budget 1st
then we can help you out more

because prices of these cars are greatly different

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I plan to budget approx $18-19K. Obviously a fair bit less (and sooner) if I'm going to get a DC2r.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

I plan to budget approx $18-19K. Obviously a fair bit less (and sooner) if I'm going to get a DC2r.

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fair bit less? if you've got that sort of money for a dc2r, you would get a mint example, which would mean you would pay exactly that (if you are uber-bargaining-man, and very, very lucky, you would pay 17). the reason i say this is because like you said, you want to recoup some money, and a mint example dc2r will reaaaally help with that in a couple of years time :).

oh and reading your comment on fwd, rwd....to be clear, i wasn't saying one is better lol. from my few years of experience, they are very different, so i thought maybe it might make a difference to you.

well said chrisSX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pure_na

fair bit less? if you've got that sort of money for a dc2r, you would get a mint example, which would mean you would pay exactly that (if you are uber-bargaining-man, and very, very lucky, you would pay 17). the reason i say this is because like you said, you want to recoup some money, and a mint example dc2r will reaaaally help with that in a couple of years time :).

oh and reading your comment on fwd, rwd....to be clear, i wasn't saying one is better lol. from my few years of experience, they are very different, so i thought maybe it might make a difference to you.

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Hey Pure NA,

Are you a DC2r owner? I'm just curious if you have a vested interest in DC2r prices.

I'e seen a few DC2Rs on the market at carsales, and like most people have said, ones asking around $15K are pretty ratty examples. There was one DC2R, however, that was described as mint (80,000 on the odo, washed every week/only driven on dry days). It was out at the sunny coast, the guy was asking $19,900. Three weeks later, no takers, still there and priced down to $17,900. It still hasn't sold and he has put "not selling for now" on the ad.

The $15-16K ITRs are still on sale at caresales, some of them have been there for many months.

BTW Pure NA, I'll be happy with either car regardless of which wheels are driven. Yes they are different to drive, theres no denying that, but both Tegs and s15 are great cars, so it's not an issue for me.

But price is not really the point of this thread. I'll worry about that in a few months when I have funds available and I'm ready to buy.

I'm really looking for reviews and comparisons between the DC2/5r/s15. I'm especially keen for things to look out for, (ie; worn rear trailing arm bushes on a DC2r etc...)

ROFL!!!!!!!, in terms of performance theres hardly any arguments. FR cars are better than FF layout in general. Adding to the insult (im kidding) a tuned S15 craps all over tuned DC5 and DC2...

...but then again this is a Honda forum and im not allowed to bag Honda's FF car coz i might get in trouble by one of the senior member(s) from this site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EVLGTR

ROFL!!!!!!!, in terms of performance theres hardly any arguments. FR cars are better than FF layout in general. Adding to the insult (im kidding) a tuned S15 craps all over tuned DC5 and DC2...

...but then again this is a Honda forum and im not allowed to bag Honda's FF car coz i might get in trouble by one of the senior member(s) from this site.

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OP was suggesting comparisions between the two cars other than just performance.

besides the dc5 is the best car in the world s15 has nothing on it :)

ahhh I had this choice 4 and a half years ago (Tossing up between S15, DC2R and DC5R), and I don't regret my decision of going for the DC2R.
At first, I wasn't going to mod my car - so I weighed it up, and stock for stock the DC2R is 10 times more fun to drive and own than a stock S15. DC5R, just wasn't a real type R.
The DC2R has been proven to be quicker or on par around Wakefield than S15's with twice as much power (from a Tomei powerplant), and the same suspension gear as I am running. It surely doesn't behave like a typical FWD, awesome engine, awesome following. DC2R is a part of history, S15 is a part of Bankstown. lol

lol yeh i own a dc2r. but my comments on the prices come from looking at the ones on carsales for about 6 months last year, and 1 month this year. i don't think im bias though, all the cars you said are imo amazing cars. i was just commenting on if you do decide you want a dc2r.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pure_na

lol yeh i own a dc2r. but my comments on the prices come from looking at the ones on carsales for about 6 months last year, and 1 month this year. i don't think im bias though, all the cars you said are imo amazing cars. i was just commenting on if you do decide you want a dc2r.

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That's cool mate, don't get me wrong I love the DC2R and will definitely consider one.

DC2R is the best NA FWD car ever made. Despite it's age, it still hasn't been beaten for that title.

2 things that make me lean towards the DC5R though:

1. It's 2 litre engine is torquier, so it doesn't need to be wound out as much (to beat a V6 Commodore for example). For that reason, it'd be a better daily thatn the DC2R.

2. DC2R styling looks really early 90s and dated, especially the interior (despite the Recaros). It was already looking dated when the ITR came out in 1999. After all, the DC2 is a 1993 design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burak213

OP was suggesting comparisions between the two cars other than just performance.

besides the dc5 is the best car in the world s15 has nothing on it :)

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Ahh EVLGTR, you are the king of the dubious post lol. As Burak said, I'm not after the fastest car (haven't you read my previous posts?). And I specifically said that before that I don't want this thread to be a FWD vs FWD pissing contest.

DC5 rocks, but I wouldn't say it's the best car in the world. I'm assuming u r talking about the Type S Burak? Don't u have one of those? Actually there are a couple of Type Ss selling atm for <$24k. I might consider a Type S, they are nice and I like the facelift look. But realistically, they will be slightly out of my price range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Ahh EVLGTR, you are the king of the dubious post lol. As Burak said, I'm not after the fastest car (haven't you read my previous posts?). And I specifically said that before that I don't want this thread to be a FWD vs FWD pissing contest.

DC5 rocks, but I wouldn't say it's the best car in the world. I'm assuming u r talking about the Type S Burak? Don't u have one of those? Actually there are a couple of Type Ss selling atm for <$24k. I might consider a Type S, they are nice and I like the facelift look. But realistically, they will be slightly out of my price range.

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hehe was joking bout the best car in the world part

but yes i got a type S the prices are going down slowly and i reakon you can haggle it down to 22k for a decent condition one.

i also looked at the s15. Didn't buy it cause of petrol, insurance and i was on green p's preventing me from driving turbo cars.

Well if you are looking into type S teggys

look for
cluster replacements
broken engine mounts
rear tail light water leakage,( lift up plastic cover in the boot to reveal space tyre make sure no rust in there)
and usual wear and tear items.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burak213

hehe was joking bout the best car in the world part

but yes i got a type S the prices are going down slowly and i reakon you can haggle it down to 22k for a decent condition one.

i also looked at the s15. Didn't buy it cause of petrol, insurance and i was on green p's preventing me from driving turbo cars.

Well if you are looking into type S teggys

look for
cluster replacements
broken engine mounts
rear tail light water leakage,( lift up plastic cover in the boot to reveal space tyre make sure no rust in there)
and usual wear and tear items.

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Thanks for the tips :D.

I agree with you, s15s are noticebly thirstier than Type R tegs. Insurance wise, i think that they are similar. I haven't checked how much a Type S is though.

$22k for a Type S, I like it! Actually my mate just picked up a mint '07 CTR. Only 50,000kms on it w/ full service history. He paid $26,000. Bloody amazing! Book value for one of those is 29-31K. CTR ain't my cup of tea, but what a deal! Seller must be in financial stress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

That's cool mate, don't get me wrong I love the DC2R and will definitely consider one.

DC2R is the best NA FWD car ever made. Despite it's age, it still hasn't been beaten for that title.

2 things that make me lean towards the DC5R though:

1. It's 2 litre engine is torquier, so it doesn't need to be wound out as much (to beat a V6 Commodore for example). For that reason, it'd be a better daily thatn the DC2R.

2. DC2R styling looks really early 90s and dated, especially the interior (despite the Recaros). It was already looking dated when the ITR came out in 1999. After all, the DC2 is a 1993 design.

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by what you've said, go dc5r. they are amazing cars, plus after you've done the ol' i/h/e mods, much faster than a dc2r. i prefer the dc2r for personal reasons, fact is, k20 is a better engine with much more power potential.

Mikecivic78, as you probably know from some of my other posts, I used to own a s14a and now own a DC5R.
The 200sx was a great looking car and I personally didnt have any reliability issues except a flange (??) melting one time and loosing all my coolant and requiring an aftermarket part being put in place that could deal with higher heat levels. Took it to the track heaps and never had problems personally.

DC2/DC5
The best thing about the ITR's is that it being FF, I dont have to think as much driving it at its limits anymore - all its going to do is understeer. No surprises.
The missing part of the ITR's is that top end, if you want "punch" out of the car, its never going to be as much as a modified S15 with right mods (well within reason boys!)

S15 - Performance & the looks would have to be the best part of these vehicles. They are sexy!
Worst part - The modification "bug". As the other guys have pointed out, these cars respond really well to modification. Within no time after buying it, you'll have a front mount, electronic boost controller, ECU upgrade, bigger wheels & rubber, coilovers, and an empty wallet, but a big smile on your face!

I bought the DC5 to save money & to stop me pouring more and more 'coin into mods on the '200, and its going to keep working for me!

Both nice cars mate - can't go wrong with either.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burak213

rear tail light water leakage,( lift up plastic cover in the boot to reveal space tyre make sure no rust in there)
and usual wear and tear items.

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If it leaks just replace the rear tail-light gasket(s)....or otherwise its been in an accident when you see rust anywhere inside the cabin

Conclusion is possible that some dodgy panel beater hasnt done a good job to seal the monocouqe body of the damaged area

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Ahh EVLGTR, you are the king of the dubious post lol.

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LMAO, why thank you very much!!!, i'll take that as a compliment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Ahh EVLGTR, you are the king of the dubious post lol. As Burak said, I'm not after the fastest car (haven't you read my previous posts?). And I specifically said that before that I don't want this thread to be a FWD vs FWD pissing contest.

DC5 rocks, but I wouldn't say it's the best car in the world. I'm assuming u r talking about the Type S Burak? Don't u have one of those? Actually there are a couple of Type Ss selling atm for <$24k. I might consider a Type S, they are nice and I like the facelift look. But realistically, they will be slightly out of my price range.

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I had this same decision, but I went with the DC5R. Over all, for me, its the best car to live with on a day to day basis, and I love the interior and exterior. The one I bought, was mint, had about 80000 km on the clock and no issues apart from a few chips and scratches. The dealer was asking $29K for it, but I talked him down to $21.5K, because I'm sneaky like that lol.

But i never regret the choice, and I see a S15 and am still happy with it because I know he isn't sitting in the sweet interior of the DC5R!!

So I'd go for a DC5R, and you can always talk the price down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamer

I had this same decision, but I went with the DC5R. Over all, for me, its the best car to live with on a day to day basis, and I love the interior and exterior. The one I bought, was mint, had about 80000 km on the clock and no issues apart from a few chips and scratches. The dealer was asking $29K for it, but I talked him down to $21.5K, because I'm sneaky like that lol.

But i never regret the choice, and I see a S15 and am still happy with it because I know he isn't sitting in the sweet interior of the DC5R!!

So I'd go for a DC5R, and you can always talk the price down.

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Nice one Jamer, you really did get a great deal on your DC5R. As a buyer, I am like you, why pay asking price? Its becoming apparent that you don't need to sell your kidneys to get an R.

I do kinda like the s15 interior though. Its not very hard-wearing, but if it's been taken care of, it looks nice IMO. Seating is also nice and low.

It's been a while since I've been in a DC5R, can u tell me if the seat is height adjustable? (with Recaros I'm guessing not).

IMO the s15 and DC5R are both sexy looking cars, but I don't like the reflectors on the back of AUDM s15s. They look out of place, like they belong on an Excel, not a 40 grand (when new) Jap sports car!

hey mate,

The seats in the DC5S has height adjustment, not sure about DC5R

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burak213

hey mate,

The seats in the DC5S has height adjustment, not sure about DC5R

cheers

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Cheers mate. Just one question, did all of the type Ss come with leather seats, and how supportive are the side bolsters?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisSX

Here's my opinion man, I've owned all three cars (DC2R, S15 and DC5R) in that order.

What you really have to look at is what you want in the car. My S15 had just a touch under 200rwkw, which I built from the ground up just after selling my DC2R to a mate. It was an absolute straight line weapon, got sideways easily and was a pretty fun car to drive. All was well and good, until I drove the DC2R I'd sold to my mate once again a few months later. It was then I realised that the S15 gearbox felt notchy and fragile and the interior was cheap (I had an 02 SpecR GT). The DC2R steering was just so precise, the gear shifts on the Honda (which was 2 year OLDER than the S15) just felt so smooth.... it's hard to describe, but the car was just SO much more fun to drive than my S15 with double the wheel kilowatts. Anyone who owns or has owned a DC2R I'm sure will agree with me here! My S15 had coilovers, swaybars, bracing, the works, so it's not like I neglected suspension tuning.

I had originally decided to sell the DC2R because I was sick of the lack of low down torque and having to hit vtec just to merge lanes in front of a commodore off the lights. As a daily driver (like all my cars have been) it was just starting to grate and I just felt like a change.

So I sold the S15 and picked up a mint 02 CW DC5R from NSW. The moment I jumped in the car, I knew I wanted it! The gear shifts felt even nicer than the DC2, it had plently of low range torque and you could really feel the research and development that was put into the car. Both the S15 and the DC5R being 2002 models, I didn't think they would be so many worlds apart, but the DC5R really did make the S15 feel like it had been thrown together from spare parts by Nissan.

At the end of the day, it will end up being your personal choice. Straight line power RWD or a fun and precise FWD. Before the DC2R I owned a 180sx and an R33 Series 2, so I'm definitely not one sided when it comes to Nissan and Honda.

As far as insurance goes, both cars were roughly the same, if I had gotten a jap-spec S15 it would have cost more. 2-door coupes will always be expensive though, so there's no real escaping it whether you're turbo or NA.

Things to look out for... the
-S15s almost always have a scratched up centre console and it's hard to find a clean example with so many 99 Jap spec models going around.
-Make sure all mods have been done properly and if the turbo has been replaced, make sure it isn't a KKR piece of junk and that the car has been tuned to the new turbo. If it is a bigger turbo and the car doesn't have an aftermarket tuned ECU, walk away.
-If it has a FMIC, is it cut through the battery tray neatly? Is the piping on the turbo side larger than the turbo inlet? This will cause laaaaaag.
-Make sure the gearbox doesn't crunch.. the S15 6-speed is a piece of crap.

For the DC5
-Make sure the oil's at the correct level to see if eats any.
-Make sure it doesn't blow white smoke on vtec.
-Check for general oil leaks, mine had a drive shaft seal leaking.
-If it has coilovers, have they been set up properly? Some people are stupid enough to not bother with a wheel alignment after.

I guess I could go on forever... I'm sure others on here will be able to tell you more about the issues with DC5Rs and DC2Rs. Or just give it a search, I'm pretty sure I've seen threads on the topic before. I hope what I've written about my own experience helps with the decision man.

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Very well said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Cheers mate. Just one question, did all of the type Ss come with leather seats, and how supportive are the side bolsters?

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the side bolsters arent that supportive compared to SR4's..... and they are height adjustible, but very minimal to be honest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r3ckless

the side bolsters arent that supportive compared to SR4's..... and they are height adjustible, but very minimal to be honest.

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Thanks. I'm sure they are more comfortable for long trips though.

And what about leather, was it standard, or optional?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EVLGTR

ROFL!!!!!!!, in terms of performance theres hardly any arguments. FR cars are better than FF layout in general. Adding to the insult (im kidding) a tuned S15 craps all over tuned DC5 and DC2...

...but then again this is a Honda forum and im not allowed to bag Honda's FF car coz i might get in trouble by one of the senior member(s) from this site.

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typical, one minded nissan driver :P

Any car manufacturer can make a car go 'fast' in a straight line (dont get me wrong, the s15s fly lol), but the real skill is making it a pleasure to drive when throwing (and having the confidence) it into a corner, thanks to the supreme tuning setup (out of the factory mind you), LSD and 50/50 weight distribution. The DC2R was rated officially the best FF car IN THE WORLD! Sophisticated engineering > brute force turbo charging. simple as that.

Yes sacrifices were made to make the DC2R what it is by removing the sound deadening, 15% thinner windscreen etc so it doesn't make it that great of a Daily Driver, which would make people lean more to the s15 or dc5 completely understandable!

IMO all 3 cars are in the exact same league (price, performance) etc, but you cant go past the DC2R for that true race experience. Im in the new market for a new car, DC2R or S15 but im pretty sure i got my mind set on a DC2R :) It all depends what you want.

S15 - easy power to be made. great looking car. great daily driver.
DC2R - Type R legend, Race aggression that you wont find in anyother factory production car in its price. pure awesomeness
DC5R - Type R legend (not as familar than the DC2 tho) more of a Daily driver than the DC2R)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Nice one Jamer, you really did get a great deal on your DC5R. As a buyer, I am like you, why pay asking price? Its becoming apparent that you don't need to sell your kidneys to get an R.

I do kinda like the s15 interior though. Its not very hard-wearing, but if it's been taken care of, it looks nice IMO. Seating is also nice and low.

It's been a while since I've been in a DC5R, can u tell me if the seat is height adjustable? (with Recaros I'm guessing not).

IMO the s15 and DC5R are both sexy looking cars, but I don't like the reflectors on the back of AUDM s15s. They look out of place, like they belong on an Excel, not a 40 grand (when new) Jap sports car!

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Yeah man, don't get me wrong, I still like the S15, but as I said, I just loved the Type R! And no, they aren't adjustable, but there is no doubt that you will be able to see if thats what you are concerned about. I have a mate who is about 5 foot 5 and has one and he has no problems, in saying that though he might not be able to see anything and just guesses where he is going lol! - hope that helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamer

Yeah man, don't get me wrong, I still like the S15, but as I said, I just loved the Type R! And no, they aren't adjustable, but there is no doubt that you will be able to see if thats what you are concerned about. I have a mate who is about 5 foot 5 and has one and he has no problems, in saying that though he might not be able to see anything and just guesses where he is going lol! - hope that helps

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On the contrary, I'm 6'1" and adjustable height seats rob me of headroom. :S I like sitting really low.

That was one of the drawbacks of upgrading from a '96 ej8 coupe to an Em1 (my current car). Ej8 driver's seat is non adjustable which is lower and better for me, but Em1 isn't. When I first drove an Em1 it felt strange sitting so high!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Thanks. I'm sure they are more comfortable for long trips though.

And what about leather, was it standard, or optional?

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Leather was standard on the Type S seats. They are heaps more confortable for long trips because the suspension isnt as hard as a 'R & higher gear ratios for high speed, not completely because of the seats...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by infurNOS

LSD and 50/50 weight distribution.

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50/50 --- schmifty/mifty my arse --- DC2 isnt a 50/50 balanced car, its so obvious the engine + drivetrain is at the front and theres hardly any weight at the back. ROFL!!!

...Oh yeah ive got a question regarding to an LSD of a DC2R, DC5R and DC5S......do you guys know how to function check an LSD by raising the car - putting into Neutral or 1st gear or whatever and spinning one tyre to determine whether its an open OR helical type ...etc?

It would be an educational post if anyone gives me a hand on how-to:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EVLGTR

50/50 --- schmifty/mifty my arse --- DC2 isnt a 50/50 balanced car, its so obvious the engine + drivetrain is at the front and theres hardly any weight at the back. ROFL!!!

...Oh yeah ive got a question regarding to an LSD of a DC2R, DC5R and DC5S......do you guys know how to function check an LSD by raising the car - putting into Neutral or 1st gear or whatever and spinning one tyre to determine whether its an open OR helical type ...etc?

It would be an educational post if anyone gives me a hand on how-to:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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Jack up the car and see if both front wheels are spining, and yeah your 110% correct about integras having more weight at the front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DC2-PWR

Jack up the car and see if both front wheels are spining, and yeah your 110% correct about integras having more weight at the front.

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Cheers!, is that on Neutral or putting into gear?....oh and which direction it should be going or free-spinning...etc

I'll just leave these here... another thread was closed before I had time to reply to it (Study and new job)...

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4

Most people aren't going to understand this... but some are. I haven't been able to find the Best motoring clip it was mentioned in (Or it could have been another Japanese video), but here is your proof.

But, back on topic, go take all the cars you want for a drive, and pick the one you like the best. You can read all the reviews in the world, but unless you drive the car and experience it for yourself, you won't know which one to pick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 45SET

I'll just leave these here... another thread was closed before I had time to reply to it (Study and new job)...

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4

Most people aren't going to understand this... but some are. I haven't been able to find the Best motoring clip it was mentioned in (Or it could have been another Japanese video), but here is your proof.

But, back on topic, go take all the cars you want for a drive, and pick the one you like the best. You can read all the reviews in the world, but unless you drive the car and experience it for yourself, you won't know which one to pick.

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Thanks a lot for the links :D Rep point given.

You are right, I have to drive them and then pick. I have driven both a DC5 and an s14, and I know I like both.

I think it will ultimately come down to finding a nice and clean example at the right price. That will most likely govern which car I buy in the end.

I am still keen to hear more pros/cons, as well as things to look out for when buying, as well as how reliable they are (i have not much idea about Nissans as I do Hondas.) and what parts are prone to problems and will likely wear out etc...

Cheers,

MIke

Mike.

I used to own an AUDM S15 for a couple of years and I've driven a few Type Rs in my time.

It really depends on your intended purpose for the car.

The S15 is likely to be a better daily driver. Torquey turbo response means that you don't need to be thrashing the living daylights out of the S15 to get real world performance e.g. plugging that gap you see in the next lane; taking off in a lane that's about to end without looking like a tool and revving like mad etc. Refinement is also better in the Nissan in terms of lower noise, more compliant ride etc.

Stock vs stock (and you'll find that lots of S15s are modded), I find the Type R more fun to drive but only in the right conditions. For example, if I did a lot of driving in deserted twisty passes or did a lot of track time, the Honda would be a hoot - keeping it on song, working the "snick, snick" box between gears and going hard on the brakes. However, if most of your driving is done in real world conditions and in traffic, I'd bet that the S15 is the better tool for the job. For example, I found the Type R too loud, too hard, too focused and with a power band that is far too narrow for the daily grind (e.g. it's not very practical and can get tiring keeping a car above 6,000rpm to extract decent performance).

Think of the Type R as a scalpel and the S15 as a hunting knife. One requires more skill and precision and is rewarding when you get it right - the other is great when you just want to make bloody big cuts in things!

I find it a little unusual that there's a perception of the S15 being unreliable. In the time that I had mine, absolute nothing went wrong. However, I am a fastidious owner and changed the oil every 5,000klms and kept the car fully serviced. As with any car (even a Honda), if it's not properly maintained, it's not likely to be reliable. The "reliability" issue with the S15 is often the fully sik owner who ups the boost on their S15, chops the springs and then laments at how unreliable the car is when the engine blows because the owner hasn't bothered to engineer the rest of the car to cope with the added power.

The other issue with reliability is that it's easy for a car to be reliable at 141kw, 147 or 154kw but if another car is putting out 250kw, well, that's not really an apples with apples comparison! What I am alluding to is you'll find lots of S15s pushing 200kw at the wheels and this power level obviously puts more stress on the mechanical components (I'm wondering how reliable a 200kwatw Type R will be?).

On the topic of big power, this is where the S15 has a clear advantage. A few of the boys pulled almost an extra 50kw at the wheels with nothing more than a full exhaust and pod filter (easily under $2k). I'm guessing that you'll need a second mortgage to get the same kind of power gains from a Type R.

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!" ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

Mike.

I used to own an AUDM S15 for a couple of years and I've driven a few Type Rs in my time.

It really depends on your intended purpose for the car.

The S15 is likely to be a better daily driver. Torquey turbo response means that you don't need to be thrashing the living daylights out of the S15 to get real world performance e.g. plugging that gap you see in the next lane; taking off in a lane that's about to end without looking like a tool and revving like mad etc. Refinement is also better in the Nissan in terms of lower noise, more compliant ride etc.

Stock vs stock (and you'll find that lots of S15s are modded), I find the Type R more fun to drive but only in the right conditions. For example, if I did a lot of driving in deserted twisty passes or did a lot of track time, the Honda would be a hoot - keeping it on song, working the "snick, snick" box between gears and going hard on the brakes. However, if most of your driving is done in real world conditions and in traffic, I'd bet that the S15 is the better tool for the job. For example, I found the Type R too loud, too hard, too focused and with a power band that is far too narrow for the daily grind (e.g. it's not very practical and can get tiring keeping a car above 6,000rpm to extract decent performance).

Think of the Type R as a scalpel and the S15 as a hunting knife. One requires more skill and precision and is rewarding when you get it right - the other is great when you just want to make bloody big cuts in things!

I find it a little unusual that there's a perception of the S15 being unreliable. In the time that I had mine, absolute nothing went wrong. However, I am a fastidious owner and changed the oil every 5,000klms and kept the car fully serviced. As with any car (even a Honda), if it's not properly maintained, it's not likely to be reliable. The "reliability" issue with the S15 is often the fully sik owner who ups the boost on their S15, chops the springs and then laments at how unreliable the car is when the engine blows because the owner hasn't bothered to engineer the rest of the car to cope with the added power.

The other issue with reliability is that it's easy for a car to be reliable at 141kw, 147 or 154kw but if another car is putting out 250kw, well, that's not really an apples with apples comparison! What I am alluding to is you'll find lots of S15s pushing 200kw at the wheels and this power level obviously puts more stress on the mechanical components (I'm wondering how reliable a 200kwatw Type R will be?).

On the topic of big power, this is where the S15 has a clear advantage. A few of the boys pulled almost an extra 50kw at the wheels with nothing more than a full exhaust and pod filter (easily under $2k). I'm guessing that you'll need a second mortgage to get the same kind of power gains from a Type R.

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!" ;)

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Thanks for the post, it was a good read. Just the type of response I'm looking for on this thread :thumbsup: BTW, are u talking about the DC2R, or DC5R? I find that the DC5R is a better daily proposition than the DC2r, and an s15 is probably the best daily with the softest ride and the best torque. On the track however, the bugITR is pretty special. I'm looking for a clean, stock well-maintained example., so I doubt relaibility will be an issue. If I get an s15, I think I'd just do the usual intake and exhaust mods and not put much stress on the old SR20DET.

How many Ks does the s15's SR20 last (on average) before a rebuild is needed? I know that well serviced Honda engines go strong for 300,000Km and sometimes way beyond.



Cheers

Found some DC5Rs on carpoint tonight. Here are some stock ones listed in my neck of the woods, and prices seem to vary.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true
http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true
http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=24&__Qpb=true

By the 3rd quarter of the year, I'll be able to rustle up $19K, which will hopefully get me one in good condition, or a clean and stock s15.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

The best thing to do is to get behind the wheel of both cars and drive them in your intended driving environment. That way, you'll get fewer surprises when you do finally buy the car e.g. "Man, I've got to absolutely thrash this car just to keep up with a Toyota Aurion in real world conditions" or "Geez, it's only started raining and the car is sliding all over the place!" ;)

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Its obvious by this comment you know both cars.

You can Beat most cars, but you tacho must be pointing at some ungodly number in the ITR.

In the S15 (from my s14 experience), it can be a bit of a handful in the wet. Gotta slow down, cowboy, or u might be going to the panel beater for door/front & rear fender repairs!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

are u talking about the DC2R, or DC5R? I find that the DC5R is a better daily proposition than the DC2r, and an s15 is probably the best daily with the softest ride and the best torque. On the track however, the bugITR is pretty special.

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I've driven both the DC2R and the DC5 Type R and Type S.

The DC2R is the rawest of the lot and the least suited of the 3 for the daily grind. If you do any long commutes on the highway, you'll notice the very short gearing and noise at highway speeds. From memory, sitting on the highway speed limit meant something in the order of 3,500rpm+ - it's not really a relaxed long distance cruiser!

The DC5 Type S is certainly more refined and the torquier 2 litre motor seems better suited for daily duties. Honda also seems to have smoothed out the vtec switch over point and the torque delivery so that you're not mashing the go pedal and left waiting and waiting for the power to arrive (though the power is still biased towards high RPM). Having said that, it's still not a match for the instant gratification and midrange torque that the S15's turbo motor brings.

The DC5 Type R is probably between the above 2 cars in terms of daily driving.

I agree that the DC2R is a blast on the track. However, realistically and as a percentage of your overall driving, how much time would you spend at the track? I'm guessing it would be less than 1% for the majority of drivers. That's a very, very narrow window of enjoyment to put up with the car's failings for the other 99% of the time that you're driving it!

I think the challenge for Honda is building cars that remain true to the Type R philosophy whilst appealing to the masses and not just the hardcore Type R fans. I think Honda tried (unsuccessfully) to do this with the current model Civic Type R - it's probably not "Type R-ish" enough to wear the badge. VW have done very well with a car that is still reasonably fun to drive but has the creature comforts and refinement that a broader and more mature audience expects (think Golf GTI).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

How many Ks does the s15's SR20 last (on average) before a rebuild is needed? I know that well serviced Honda engines go strong for 300,000Km and sometimes way beyond. If I get an s15, I think I'd just do the usual intake and exhaust mods and not put much stress on the old SR20DET.

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There is no reason why a well maintained S15 in standard or mild tune cannot see over 250,000klm without drama. Here are a few examples of high K S15s running without issue:

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...s=17&silo=1011

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...s=17&silo=1011

The AUDM S15 is quite restricted in tune and in particular, in respect of the pea shooter exhaust. Intake and exhaust mods are not likely to stress the SR20DET motor and if anything, will help the engine breath better. This is the great thing about a lot of turbo cars - with just intake, exhaust or other minor upgrades, you can realise massive power gains. In the case of the S15, an additional 50kwatw is not out of the question for such simple mods.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

Its obvious by this comment you know both cars.

You can Beat most cars, but you tacho must be pointing at some ungodly number in the ITR.

In the S15 (from my s14 experience), it can be a bit of a handful in the wet. Gotta slow down, cowboy, or u might be going to the panel beater for door/front & rear fender repairs!

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I perfectly understand the appeal of the ITR. As previously stated, it's a lot of fun in certain conditions that allow for constant high RPM. In other conditions, it can be a bit much keeping it on the boil and a times, you can look like you're trying just a bit too hard when all you want to do is get the car moving at a decent pace to keep up with the flow of traffic!

Yes, the 200sx is far from perfect. Like many sports coupes, it has its limitations as a daily driver e.g. limited rear seat and boot space, notchy gear box, and "challenging" handling at the limit or in tricky conditions.

The S15 is better sorted than the S14 though. It has better tuned suspension and a superior limited slip diff. Whilst it may handle a little better than the S14, it's still a reasonably powerful RWD turbo car so you need to exercise careful throttle and steering control in the wet.

I'd reiterate that you should try and test both cars in your usual driving routes. Everyone has different tolerances in what they will and will not accept in a daily driver. The best way to see what you will tolerate is to drive both cars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikecivic78

By the 3rd quarter of the year, I'll be able to rustle up $19K, which will hopefully get me one in good condition, or a clean and stock s15.

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I had a quick look at what S15s are asking for these days and you'll easily get something for $19k.

Stock and even heavily modified examples start from $15k and some apparently have only 40-50K on the odometer:

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

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Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

I had a quick look at what S15s are asking for these days and you'll easily get something for $19k.

Stock and even heavily modified examples start from $15k and some apparently have only 40-50K on the odometer:

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...d=124D7F9C8A53

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Thanks for the posts cyber_scriber. Some real s15 bargains here! The stock gunmetal and next-to stock yellow one are what I'd be after. They are cheap as! Maybe someone is in mortgage stress!

I'm sure I'll get a mint s15 or DC5R for <$19K when I trade up. Although I love the DC2r, there is no replacement for displacement, especially in a daily driven car. K20a and SR20 (both 2L class) have decent torque and are still pretty frugal.

i find myself in this same dilemma. i own a dc2r an absolutely love it to bits great balance of handling and performance, but i am looking for a bit more power and ow range torque and a car with a more 'modern' interior. also looking at dc5r and JDM s15. so great thread.

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Originally Posted by kairi_k

i find myself in this same dilemma. i own a dc2r an absolutely love it to bits great balance of handling and performance, but i am looking for a bit more power and ow range torque and a car with a more 'modern' interior. also looking at dc5r and JDM s15. so great thread.

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Nice to meet you :wave:

yea, the DC5r has noticebley more torque, but if you are looking for low-mid torque, the s15 is the clear leader. Problem is , there seems to be more clean DC5Rs on the market compared that s15s. I wouldn't buy any s15 that has quoted HP atw on the ad. Interiors of both cars are nice, but the imported Silvia has a better looking steering wheel IMO. You could always swap it though.

Even though I'm not ready to buy yet, I've just found these 2 completely clean, stock (or very close to it) s15s on carpoint:

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=70&__Qpb=true

http://www.carpoint.com.au/all-cars/...=70&__Qpb=true

For $17.5K, these Nissans are priced very well. I love my Hondas, but come buying time, the cleanest car at the best price will find a home in my garage.

Thanks for all the posts guys... but don't forget, this thread is still open and I'm always keen to hear your opinions.

test drove an s15 yesterday.
great torque, awesome acceleration. very comfy to drive, a little on the small side....but it doesnt have anywhere near the pull or the top end that my car has :)
which should mean an ITR would pwn it top end...

Below are just my experience with both cars. Written off my S15 'cause drifted into a pole in the wet, got a DC5 now and its damn good. Personally for everyday driving taking 60km a day to and fro work, I prefer the DC5.

S15
Goods: More torque, more drifty, better acceleration.
Bads: Scary in the wet if u can't hold it, more fuel consumption, rough gearbox and usual turbo lag.

DC5
Goods: Engine note is music to the ear, less fuel consumption unless u vtec every shift, good power without lag and very smooth power delivery, smooth gearbox.
Bads: Parts are expensive, servicing is expensive at dealers, front wheel drive (?), less torque.

With respect to the relevant posters, what I find a little curious is the criticism of the S15's "turbo lag" and yet, there is no corresponding balancing comment on "Vtec lag".

Similarly, the comment about the S15's apparent lack of "top end pull" is not fairly balanced with any comment about the Type R's lack of bottom end and mid range pull (where we tend to do most of our driving).

The S15 runs a relatively small T28 turbo, which makes boost from as early as 2,000rpm.

Type R's don't come into the aggressive cam profile until around 5,500rpm and beyond (and that's where you need to keep the tacho if you really want to get moving).

Now, given that the intended use here is for a daily driver, where would you tend to spend more of your time - at 2000rpm or 5,500rpm? ;)

Granted we are on a Honda forum but a bit of balance never hurts!

To inject a more balanced perspective between the cars, have a look at what NRMA had to say:

https://www.mynrma.com.au/cps/rde/xc...002_1000km.htm

Some excerpts from the review:

"Midrange urge [from the Type R] is respectable enough, though the Nissan 200SX is strongest in the three way contest and the Subaru WRX is also more emphatic from 4000 rpm. Both are also quicker than the Integra from 0-100 km/h."

"The Integra Type R is probably as competent as a front-drive sports car can get. Nissan's rear drive 200SX and Subaru's all-wheel-drive WRX, however, are less expensive, superior on the road and easier to live with."

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Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

With respect to the relevant posters, what I find a little curious is the criticism of the S15's "turbo lag" and yet, there is no corresponding balancing comment on "Vtec lag".

Similarly, the comment about the S15's apparent lack of "top end pull" is not fairly balanced with any comment about the Type R's lack of bottom end and mid range pull (where we tend to do most of our driving).

The S15 runs a relatively small T28 turbo, which makes boost from as early as 2,000rpm.

Type R's don't come into the aggressive cam profile until around 5,500rpm and beyond (and that's where you need to keep the tacho if you really want to get moving).

Now, given that the intended use here is for a daily driver, where would you tend to spend more of your time - at 2000rpm or 5,500rpm? ;)

Granted we are on a Honda forum but a bit of balance never hurts!

To inject a more balanced perspective between the cars, have a look at what NRMA had to say:

https://www.mynrma.com.au/cps/rde/xc...002_1000km.htm

Some excerpts from the review:

"Midrange urge [from the Type R] is respectable enough, though the Nissan 200SX is strongest in the three way contest and the Subaru WRX is also more emphatic from 4000 rpm. Both are also quicker than the Integra from 0-100 km/h."

"The Integra Type R is probably as competent as a front-drive sports car can get. Nissan's rear drive 200SX and Subaru's all-wheel-drive WRX, however, are less expensive, superior on the road and easier to live with."

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Some excerpts from the review:

"Extracting 147 kW from a 2.0 litre naturally aspirated four is a technical marvel. The Nissan's 200SX and Subaru's WRX need high boost turbos to achieve 147 and 160 kW respectively."

"The I-VTEC 2.0 litre is very economical given its output, using 7.0 litres/100 km on the highway and 11.3 litres/100 km around town."

On the note of a "daily driver" as the above poster mentioned, I particularly like the second quote. What performance sports car can deliver the same power output, yet have a much lower fuel consumption.

Having said that, I think its easy to see from all the above posters that the debate between a Type R vs a S15 is that for any future Type R/S15 owners, see what you really want out of the car, I only an Integra myself, and I must admit, ever since it became purely a weekend car, I am bored of it and have been trolling around on othe forums seeing what else is available on the market at present.

Yes the DC5, in my eyes is a great all around car. Its got the 2 door look, but can easily fit 4 people. Its got a decent power output, yet will give me a fuel consumption of 9.0L/100km. Again it is just a 2 door, but has a massive boot. Having said this, as I use it as a weekend car, all of these features are becoming obsolete to my situation.

I am still unsure of what/where I want to go, but that will all be left for another day as i'm hungry and going down to get some ice cream. kthnxbye

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Originally Posted by r3ckless

On the note of a "daily driver" as the above poster mentioned, I particularly like the second quote. What performance sports car can deliver the same power output, yet have a much lower fuel consumption.

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I agree that if you'll be doing a lot of K's on the daily grind, then fuel economy does come into consideration. You'd be surprised though at the S15's fuel economy. Bear in mind that it is a relatively light weight and small displacement turbo charged engine. Here are the official Government fuel economy figures for both cars:

a) Type R - 9L/100klm city cycle; 7.2L/100klm highway cycle
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...vehicleid=6921

b) 200sx - 10L/100klm city cycle; 7.0L/100klm highway cycle
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...vehicleid=7147

There's not much in it and in fact, according to the official figures, the 200sx is actually more fuel efficient on the highway. I'm guessing this is to do with gearing (i.e. the Type R has very short gearing so you rev higher at highway speeds) and the 200sx's more efficient torque delivery and the fact that it's often off boost at highway speeds.

Now of course, the official Government figures won't represent what we'll get in the real world. However, they are performed under controlled conditions and are useful for comparative purposes.

I think the real cost killer will be insurance. RWD + turbo usually means high premiums so that is a minus for the 200sx. This may be balanced out somewhat by the higher Type R / Honda servicing costs.

Honda should certainly be commended on making an NA engine with a very high power output for the engine size. Whilst it may deliver "the same [power] output", I think the fact that we need to consider is that it is making nowhere near the same torque output. For a daily driver and for better driveability, torque is very important and this is why the Type R is a far more frenetic car to pilot in traffic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r3ckless

it is just a 2 door, but has a massive boot. Having said this, as I use it as a weekend car, all of these features are becoming obsolete to my situation.

I am still unsure of what/where I want to go, but that will all be left for another day

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If you like the Type R philosophy and have no requirements for a boot, perhaps something from the Lotus range?

Was originally looking at 350z.... Still wanting it lol.downside is.. Modding it is very expensove

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cyber_scriber

I agree that if you'll be doing a lot of K's on the daily grind, then fuel economy does come into consideration. You'd be surprised though at the S15's fuel economy. Bear in mind that it is a relatively light weight and small displacement turbo charged engine. Here are the official Government fuel economy figures for both cars:

a) Type R - 9L/100klm city cycle; 7.2L/100klm highway cycle
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...vehicleid=6921

b) 200sx - 10L/100klm city cycle; 7.0L/100klm highway cycle
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...vehicleid=7147

There's not much in it and in fact, according to the official figures, the 200sx is actually more fuel efficient on the highway. I'm guessing this is to do with gearing (i.e. the Type R has very short gearing so you rev higher at highway speeds) and the 200sx's more efficient torque delivery and the fact that it's often off boost at highway speeds.

Now of course, the official Government figures won't represent what we'll get in the real world. However, they are performed under controlled conditions and are useful for comparative purposes.

I think the real cost killer will be insurance. RWD + turbo usually means high premiums so that is a minus for the 200sx. This may be balanced out somewhat by the higher Type R / Honda servicing costs.

Honda should certainly be commended on making an NA engine with a very high power output for the engine size. Whilst it may deliver "the same [power] output", I think the fact that we need to consider is that it is making nowhere near the same torque output. For a daily driver and for better driveability, torque is very important and this is why the Type R is a far more frenetic car to pilot in traffic.



If you like the Type R philosophy and have no requirements for a boot, perhaps something from the Lotus range?

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Another good post scriber!

Moderators, give this guy some rep pls!!!! I dont have enough rep power to lift him above noob status. To be honest, many people do not give out rep when it's due. I ALWAYS rep useful posts, but as I only have 15 QPs, I can't affect other peoples status.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and he doesn't deserve credit.... but could someone look into it?

im sure he would get noticed sooner or later by the mods.


on topic.

when you going to buy your man? im waiting on your decision

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Originally Posted by burak213

im sure he would get noticed sooner or later by the mods.


on topic.

when you going to buy your man? im waiting on your decision

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Hi Burak, long time no speak.

It looks like it could be as early as August, after tax time, I will have funds. I might have to borrow a couple of grand from the bank, but no biggie.

I'm still getting some fun from my EM1, so I'm ok atm. Its amazing how much power it has, considering its a 1.6 and NA. Its also in nearly mint condition, despite having 177,000 on the clock atm. Apart from servicing it, I've never had to replace anything. If it had more torque, i'd keep it longer.

i test drove a s15 and DC2R both stock - both back to back.
all i can say is the DC2R owns, until you mod the s15 dur lol

In for a fricken awesome read. I am also looking at a DC5S and ditching the FD...

IMO different cars suit different people. I would definitely recommend you to test drive a few of both cars and then pick. Different people have different tastes so choose what you like.

For me as a daily driver who sometimes cares about fuel cost, I reckon the DC5 suits me more.

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Originally Posted by TypeR Lover

For me as a daily driver who sometimes cares about fuel cost, I reckon the DC5 suits me more.

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Very true. Since the car will be an urban warrior for me (Brissie traffic has sucked since about 2005,...damn southern immigrants), I can imagine that an s15 would probably average 13L/100Km+. My EM1 does 10L/100Ks, which consists of mostly gridlock (Coro Dr to the city and back and to UQ, and Oxley Rd at peak hour) so I'm a bit worried about that.

I've also noticed that the AUDM s15 interior isnt as nice as it's Silvia counterpart. I'd definitely swap the steering wheel, the AUDM one looks so cheap and crap.

Thanks for all the posts everyone. Keep 'em comin ;) This thread is always a good read. I'm glad that almost everyone hasn't been too opinionated and overall the posts have been quiteobjective.

When I started this thread, I though everyone would burn me for mentioning the Nissan so I've been pleasantly surprised :)

yeah jdm wheel looks alot better, also u would swap the climate control unit and maybe add the jdm boost gauge + a pillar

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Originally Posted by kairi_k

yeah jdm wheel looks alot better, also u would swap the climate control unit and maybe add the jdm boost gauge + a pillar

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I agree ;) ... and return to stock later for good resale ;)