The B20VTEC discussion thread

[MikeyG]

Standard manifold works well but yeah only problem with b18c head is the lack of manifolds. But they more compression then a b16a head

[zeni-tani]

Standard manifold works well but yeah only problem with b18c head is the lack of manifolds. But they more compression then a b16a head

lol i dont doubt that, however i want to get a manifold where i can get my fat little fingers around! Specially with that pain in the ass rear engine mount. I might end up getting a blox.

i want to know toda au and chr1s input on this too please

[tinkerbell]

i want to know toda au and chr1s input on this too please

your welcome, anytime...

[zeni-tani]

your welcome, anytime...

Hey i respect your experience and i do thank you for your kind advice, however i am open for other opinions as well.

[MikeyG]

Hahaha tinkerbell knows alot also since he had a b20 for some time and still growing strong I think.

I also would like inputs from ch1rs and toda au as they know and BUILD their b series

[Benson]

Honda B series box is the B series weak point. They are weak as piss in standard form.

They can take a fair bit of punishment ;)

[zeni-tani]

Hahaha tinkerbell knows alot also since he had a b20 for some time and still growing strong I think.

I also would like inputs from ch1rs and toda au as they know and BUILD their b series

That i dont doubt because even before i posted here i watched his buidl grow.

[Chr1s]

haha Tinkerbell, nearly left out there for a moment! This man knows his stuff too. :beer:

Zeni-tani - I would run around 0.045" on the intake and 0.050" on the exhaust as my minimum values, anything lower than that and you're asking for trouble, as mr Tinkerbell mentioned, remember rod stretch, this value will be different for each type of rod used as they have different inclusive material properties.

If you're bringing the lobe centres closer together I dare say you will have valve to valve issues before you get into some piston to valve problems.

It should also be noteworthy that lift is not to be considered as dangerous as duration is when talking about P2V clearances as the valve has peaked way before the piston is even close to it, the duration is what's going to hurt you and this is why you need to set your cam gears to full retard and advance and check both sides of the variance for any issues to save you running into them if you do try and get fancy on the dyno.

After saying what has been said, at the end of the day, there is no hard fast rule for a clearance, it all depends on how far you want to go and what parts are being used, mass has a big effect on what the clearance should be, obviously if you are using very lightweight parts with minimal interia then the clearance can be tightened up dramatically.

All in all, check on all pistons as I have seen some pistons needing work to enlarge the releif - width wise not depth.

[tinkerbell]

hey chr1s - what do you think of the duel runner IM on a B20VTEC?

[Chr1s]

To be honest I havn't had experiance with it nor had the chance to break one of the manifolds down and investigate the design and possible flaws.

From first look I think they are a tad too long for high RPM gains but would produce some decent torque anything below that. Do they like the sub 5k region?

I still opt for B16 ported/ITR style manifolds.

[GSi_PSi]

charlie at GPC told me B16a IM is way to small even for a stock b20

[zeni-tani]

haha Tinkerbell, nearly left out there for a moment! This man knows his stuff too. :beer:

Zeni-tani - I would run around 0.045" on the intake and 0.050" on the exhaust as my minimum values, anything lower than that and you're asking for trouble, as mr Tinkerbell mentioned, remember rod stretch, this value will be different for each type of rod used as they have different inclusive material properties.

If you're bringing the lobe centres closer together I dare say you will have valve to valve issues before you get into some piston to valve problems.

It should also be noteworthy that lift is not to be considered as dangerous as duration is when talking about P2V clearances as the valve has peaked way before the piston is even close to it, the duration is what's going to hurt you and this is why you need to set your cam gears to full retard and advance and check both sides of the variance for any issues to save you running into them if you do try and get fancy on the dyno.

After saying what has been said, at the end of the day, there is no hard fast rule for a clearance, it all depends on how far you want to go and what parts are being used, mass has a big effect on what the clearance should be, obviously if you are using very lightweight parts with minimal interia then the clearance can be tightened up dramatically.

All in all, check on all pistons as I have seen some pistons needing work to enlarge the releif - width wise not depth.

Fantastic! I will certainly look in to it, having said that shed some light on some manifolds i am a little restricted i cant use B16A or ITR units cause the flange design is diffrent.

[Chr1s]

For the record, I dont know my "shit", I'm just that kind of person that is opinionated in a certain way and always relate my view to an engineering point of view not what some fella said on honda-tech, I don't like the "bullcrap" around builds. The nissan boys from my old forum know this one :p

With regards to intake manifolds, it really depends on whats going on with the actual mechanical operation of the engine, ie - valvetrain, piston selection, combustion chamber design, header design and correct length intake piping.

A near standard B20 can get away with standard manifolds (header and intake) but once you start throwing some cams in the game, those manifolds are going to set you back. I would never use a standard manifold anyway without some massaging here and there ;)

[Chr1s]

Bring this back from the dead.

I would like some opinions on airbox setups, this is regard to street cars that need a pod filter enclosed as we know how much the police love defecting these things. I will be running an airbox on my car full stop, I can't afford to have the car tagged as a "defect machine"

Now, I know there is known units such as comptech, mugen and standard. I would like to know the gains/losses had with lets say a mugen airbox - appeals to me due to the cold air feed in a proper ducting setup. I'm chasing opinion of more experianced people, sometimes theory with these things proves to be bullshit.

[TODA AU]

/\ Mugen... :thumbsup:
By far the best & it's good for over 160kw...
Works with Plenums or Quads

There's a Mugen copy too (out of China), but it's not as good.

Std airbox reaches it's limit around 120~125kw

Comptech... Not a fan...
Can't say for sure if it's crap...
Just all the cars that have them seem to be... LOL
Plus it uses a puss foam filter

[TODA AU]

Fantastic! I will certainly look in to it, having said that shed some light on some manifolds i am a little restricted i cant use B16A or ITR units cause the flange design is diffrent.

Use the B18C2 std intake manifold & keep the IAB (secondary intake runner) function.
For maximum output use with a 65mm throttle & you'll need to tickle the inside a little.

[Chr1s]

As I thought, cheers

[TODA AU]

I know the PTV will also depend on what piston is used however from experience what is safe and ideal?

1.5mm is about as close as you should dare going...

[ALLMTR996]

:honda:B20Vtec's where are all the guru's with there e-machanic knowledge

[Chr1s]

hahaha

[VTec1987]

no1 wants to share

[zeni-tani]

Use the B18C2 std intake manifold & keep the IAB (secondary intake runner) function.
For maximum output use with a 65mm throttle & you'll need to tickle the inside a little.

Thanks adz so there really is no point buying a aftermarket fancy manifold, i asked since i do not have a manifold to start with.

[MikeyG]

Chris i will re-start the build need to talk to you on msn after work aye

[Killa From Manila]

/\ Mugen... :thumbsup:
By far the best & it's good for over 160kw...
Works with Plenums or Quads

There's a Mugen copy too (out of China), but it's not as good.

Std airbox reaches it's limit around 120~125kw

Comptech... Not a fan...
Can't say for sure if it's crap...
Just all the cars that have them seem to be... LOL
Plus it uses a puss foam filter

would u go mugen over a brand name or custom cai?

[TODA AU]

would u go mugen over a brand name or custom cai?

For a maximum effort road or track car with zero defects,
Yes the Mugen is a fine choice.
With excellent flow, it lends itself to use with both plenums or quads.

That said,
If you're on a budget & defects are not so much a concern,
Products like Injen, AEM, Fujita etc offer excellent value for money.

The custom CAI with a dyno tuned length & bellmouth intake,
If enough time is spent, will generally deliver the best result with a plenum.
However the cost can be comparitivley high.

[Killa From Manila]

thanks for that

[Lerlo]

Quick question. What would be the compression of a stock b20 block with a b16a head, will the compression remain as 9.8?

[ZeForce]

Quick question. What would be the compression of a stock b20 block with a b16a head, will the compression remain as 9.8?

9.96:1 with PR3 B16a/B18cR head
10.14:1 with P72 B18c head


This is using a B20B8 with the PHK pistons.....

[Lerlo]

9.96:1 with PR3 B16a/B18cR head
10.14:1 with P72 B18c head


This is using a B20B8 with the PHK pistons.....

Cool, thanks!
Whats PHK pistons? Sorry, kinda noob.....

[ZeForce]

Cool, thanks!
Whats PHK pistons? Sorry, kinda noob.....

They are the pistons used in the B20B8 which will give you higher comp compared to the pistons used in the B20B3

[tinkerbell]

i.e they are the name of the standard Honda B20B8 pistons.

the B20B3 Honda pistons are stamped "P3F"

see the stamp here:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac336/tinkerbell987/B20B8block.jpg

[MikeyG]

tinker it says PH? but if it doees say P3F where.. i think im going blind :(

[ZeForce]

Here's a slightly better picture

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/34/l_4f822a6c5a74d2477e421d420467a700.jpg

[kraiye]

he's showing u the PHK pistons from the b8, not the P3F from the b3. i was a lil confused at first too. lol

[DC2-PWR]

Mmm intresting, thanks for the pic

[Lerlo]

Wow, thanks for the pictures!

[tinkerbell]

tinker it says PH? but if it doees say P3F where.. i think im going blind :(

lol!!! my bad!

i didnt really set that post out too well eh?

at least krayie understood my sunday morning posting :thumbsup:

FWIW here is a P3F stamped piston what was fly-cut by a head shop:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac336/tinkerbell987/cutpiston01.jpg

here is a PHK that was hand cut with a Dremel by me:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac336/tinkerbell987/cutpiston02.jpg

[tinkerbell]

oh, and see how the P3F is has a pronounced dish and the PHK is more flat?

that is the difference between the B20B3 and the B20B8 :)

[ZeForce]

You should really round off the egdes on the pistons, those sharp edges promote detonation

[bennjamin]

You should really round off the egdes on the pistons, those sharp edges promote detonation


id say this was a work in progress pic and not the final product.

But , a good heads up for all those learning !

[tinkerbell]

You should really round off the egdes on the pistons, those sharp edges promote detonation

yes, you really should (remember to take pictures after you finish rounding off the edges!)

[tinkerbell]

actually , post #281 (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2671155&postcount=281) has finished pics :)

[ZeForce]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Lerlo]

oh, and see how the P3F is has a pronounced dish and the PHK is more flat?

that is the difference between the B20B3 and the B20B8 :)

So the P3F is the one with 8.8 compression?

[tinkerbell]

yeah that's right.

[kraiye]

btw, how did you know how deep to go with the dremel? and what head/grinding bit did u use with it?

[TODA AU]

btw, how did you know how deep to go with the dremel?

A standard B20 intake valve has a head diameter of 31mm
But the B16A/B18C intake valve is 2mm bigger at 33mm.
So, the intake flycut radius aught to be increased by 1mm.

I wouldn't recommend going much deeper...

For interest sake, nothing need be done on the exhaust side as the standard exhaust valve sizes are the same for B16A/B18C/B20B @ 28mm (dia)

[tinkerbell]

yeah, so you don't just make them deeper as such, you take them wider (1mm) and correspondingly deeper...

[kraiye]

great info thanks.

don't suppose you know what's required for skunk2 pro1 cams in a b16with stock valves? would that require going too deep adrian?

[tinkerbell]

wat?

you wann run SK2 Pro cam's with stock B20B pistons?

i doubt that 'combination' will be any good...

[tinkerbell]

and what head/grinding bit did u use with it?

i used the 1/2in and 1/4in sanding drums with the 60 & 120 grit rolls.

http://mdm.boschwebservices.com/MDMCache/English%20[AU]/t06/0000000/r00164v1.jpg

then 400 and 800 wet/dry to smooth it out by hand...

[Lerlo]

wat?

you wann run SK2 Pro cam's with stock B20B pistons?

i doubt that 'combination' will be any good...

Whys that?

[TODA AU]

great info thanks.
don't suppose you know what's required for skunk2 pro1 cams in a b16with stock valves? would that require going too deep adrian?

Do the flycuts as described...
Then assemble the motor, set the cam timing & check PV clearence with clay or platicine.
Only increase the depth if you're touching or have less than 1mm clearence.
Re cams...
Lift isn't so much of an issue as duration

[tinkerbell]

Whys that?

compression ratio might no be high enough...

happy to be corrected though :)

[Lerlo]

compression ratio might no be high enough...

happy to be corrected though :)

ooh... yeah thats true.
Thanks for the info..

[Lerlo]

I just got myself a b20 block and an engine stand.
My engine stand mounting points are 70mm long.
The Engine block has 4 threaded (10 x 1.25) holes I presume
And 3 through holes.

Which holes should I be using to mount the engine?

[Lerlo]

I just got myself a b20 block and an engine stand.
My engine stand mounting points are 70mm long.
The Engine block has 4 threaded (10 x 1.25) holes I presume
And 3 through holes.

Which holes should I be using to mount the engine?

Sorry its 4 threaded 12 x 1.25 holes

[Chr1s]

It doesn't matter, just use common sense and hold the engine securely.

The through hole can be used no dramas.

[Lerlo]

It doesn't matter, just use common sense and hold the engine securely.

The through hole can be used no dramas.

Cool, thanks.

Anyone knows where I could get long 12x1.25 bolts.
Tried 2 bunnings, repco and supercheap, couldnt find any that were long enough

[ZeForce]

Check yellow pages for a fastener shop in your area

[Chr1s]

Supercheap and repco are useless. I can't beleive they are associated with that name considering what they sell, especially supercheap.

If you're in Sydney, southern area, hit up Industrial Fasteners.

[Lerlo]

Supercheap and repco are useless. I can't beleive they are associated with that name considering what they sell, especially supercheap.

If you're in Sydney, southern area, hit up Industrial Fasteners.

Nah Im in Melbourne, will look up some bolts and nuts supppliers over here tomorrow. Thanks for the help!

[kraiye]

Coventry Fastners perhaps? do you have them down there?

Bunnings have long threaded rod which may work if you can't find anything. dunno what sizes they have though.

[tinkerbell]

My engine stand mounting points are 70mm long.

dont be shy and use a hacksaw to make them shorter... you can use std gearbox bolts then....

[mocchi]

Coventry Fastners perhaps? do you have them down there?

Bunnings have long threaded rod which may work if you can't find anything. dunno what sizes they have though.

yea there is conventry fasteners here in melb. more variety compared to bunnings.

[TODA AU]

FFS, just cut the ****ers shorter & use your gearbox bolts


edit... LOL.. Too slow, Dave beat me to it... :p

[Lerlo]

FFS, just cut the ****ers shorter & use your gearbox bolts


edit... LOL.. Too slow, Dave beat me to it... :p

Cant cut it any shorter because of the dumb design of the engine stand...

Anyway walked in to my local bolts and nuts shop, walked out with 100mm High tensile bolts. :D

$4.50 a piece though.

[kraiye]

ouch!

[MrKaji]

Supercheap and repco are useless. I can't beleive they are associated with that name considering what they sell, especially supercheap.

If you're in Sydney, southern area, hit up Industrial Fasteners.

Amen to that! staff there didnt know what a honda crx was LOL

[Lerlo]

Hey guys Ive got a question.

Im thinking of running a compression of 10.5-11 on my b20.
Was wondering is it a good idea to mill the block and the head to achieve that?
Thereby keeping the stock pistons?
Would there be clearance issues running on Type R cams?

[tinkerbell]

yeah, mil the head and block...

problems include - timing belt is off, i think 1 degree advanced for every 1mm you take off?

but you should also enlarge the stock valve reliefs on the stock pistons...

other option is RS machine pistons, but that gets expensive quickly...

[Benson]

other option is RS machine pistons, but that gets expensive quickly...

Care to explain why it will be more expensive quickly?

[tinkerbell]

do the math...

pistons + hone = more $$$ than milling a head...

yes/no?

[Lerlo]

do the math...

pistons + hone = more $$$ than milling a head...

yes/no?

Ooh, so using the stock pistons you dont have to hone?
Even if you gotta change the rings?

Btw, would u know how much I should mill on the block and the head?

[Chr1s]

To mill the head you don't need to take the pistons out or even touch the block for that matter, thats why it's a cheaper way to raise compression than buying new pistons.

I'd rather spend the money and just buy new pistons than milling the head to it's minimum service limit. What if you need to do it again later?

If you replace pistons, you need to do the necessary prep work ie honing, etc. If you re-ring the motor, same thing. But why put stock pistons back in for?...

[Lerlo]

To mill the head you don't need to take the pistons out or even touch the block for that matter, thats why it's a cheaper way to raise compression than buying new pistons.

I'd rather spend the money and just buy new pistons than milling the head to it's minimum service limit. What if you need to do it again later?

If you replace pistons, you need to do the necessary prep work ie honing, etc. If you re-ring the motor, same thing. But why put stock pistons back in for?...

Ooh, i see... Ive already removed everything from the block. Am gonna be changing bearings and rings.
Was thinking of changing pistons as well, but Im not aiming for high compression. Something between 10.5-11 I reckon. I just thought its a waste of money to get after-market pistons for just .5 CR increase.
But considering the cost of milling and enlarging the valve clearence holes (Not sure what its called), maybe its a better idea to just get pistons afterall...

[MikeyG]

Are you hard out build? Or something more zippy for street and track

[Lerlo]

Are you hard out build? Or something more zippy for street and track

Something more zippy for track actually and daily. Just sick of the lack of torque on a b16.
I heard running a CR over 11 is tougher on the sleeves which arent already very strong.

[MikeyG]

it can hold but what you should do is put a slapper together first and see how you like it then go from there.

tinkerbell always has the answers :D only person who has had the longest b20 both track and daily

[Chr1s]

B20's will take 11-12:1 CR with no problems....

Enough with the sleeve bullshit.

[ZeForce]

B20's will take 11-12:1 CR with no problems....

Enough with the sleeve bullshit.

I second this....

[MikeyG]

i want to ask the a totally different question.

for the b20vtec obv you either going to use b16a box or integ vtir box or type r, i wonder why the guys in the states use LS 5th gear? to stay in 5th longer?

[tinkerbell]

reduce rpm when driving on their freeways...

[tinkerbell]

Ooh, i see... Ive already removed everything from the block. Am gonna be changing bearings and rings.

why????? was the engine damaged?



Was thinking of changing pistons as well, but Im not aiming for high compression. Something between 10.5-11 I reckon. I just thought its a waste of money to get after-market pistons for just .5 CR increase.


yeah, there are cheaper ways to increase compression by 0.5 tahn new pistons



But considering the cost of milling and enlarging the valve clearence holes (Not sure what its called), maybe its a better idea to just get pistons afterall...

milling head = $60
fly-cut valve reliefs x 8 = $80ish (haven't paid to have this done since 2003 - that is what it cost me then)


BUT - you really should be doing a "Full head service" including new valve stem seals and maybe a multi-angle valve seat job...

[Chr1s]

I've done the same thing to my gearbox Mickey, it is literally an over-drive!

[tinkerbell]

depending on certain factors an LS 5th gear = 300km/h+

[ewendc2r]

would love to see a dc2r shredding at over 300kmh lol!!

[VTec1987]

How long would b20vtec last for?

[MikeyG]

its can last for a long time, with good maintenance.

tinkerbell had a b20 for like yonkz with no problems, depends on the person aswell.

btw vtec pm me when your getting your shit :p

[Chr1s]

Same as any other engine.

I don't understand where the reliability issues idea of a b20vtec comes from. It may have some flaws, but if they are rectified when being built, you really don't have an issue!

Put simply, ring seal and bearings keep your engine together. If you can match those two, you should be fine.

[tinkerbell]

I don't understand where the reliability issues idea of a b20vtec comes from.

it comes from americans putting them together, running on a std ecu or similar stupid things, then complaining when they break...

[Chr1s]

^ lol actually thats true, i've seen that a fair few times..."my boy from the block...." hahah

[Lerlo]

Nah, I just thought its standard practice to change the bearings, rings and seals when the engines out. Plus I was interested in learning how to do it...

Oh and Ive been reading about multi angle valve seats, are they supposed to improve the seal of the valves?


why????? was the engine damaged?



yeah, there are cheaper ways to increase compression by 0.5 tahn new pistons



milling head = $60
fly-cut valve reliefs x 8 = $80ish (haven't paid to have this done since 2003 - that is what it cost me then)


BUT - you really should be doing a "Full head service" including new valve stem seals and maybe a multi-angle valve seat job...

[tinkerbell]

"standard practice" for 40 year old V8 maybe?

not for a precision japanese engine... 'standard practice' would be to measure the clearances & tolerances to confirm, or leave it alone and run as is...

to "learn how to do it" you need about $400 worth of measuring devices...

[Lerlo]

Well, my machine shop will be doing the measurements for the new bearings for me. I guess its just a precaution. Dont want it to fail after all the work thats been put in.

Btw how much difference does it make it terms of power, stresses and risk of detonations between a CR of 10 and say 11..

[Chr1s]

There is more torque and power to be found with higher compression, stresses are negligible. Risk of pinging, once again, negligible at those values.

If you're thinking standard pistons vs RS machines, or something, it's not just the compression ratio value, or the releifs to run big cams, it's the pistons design. Aside the fact your gaining torque, reponse and power you are effecting the flow characteristics of that cylinder compared to the standard piston. I very much like the RS machine design, well ITR design to be specific. It's a good piston and works well in B20's with proof.

By the way lerlo, your inbox is full.

[ILLIN]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for this thread... been forever contemplating an upgrade, be it engine or car...

I own a stock EM1 only mods done is my own make-shift custom CAI... I removed the resonator, shortened the intake pipe, cut a hole in the front bumper vent and meshed it. Installed a drop in K&N filter and used the remainder of the pipe and inserted it in chamber connected to the airbox to create more of a "direct flow." Result? Car feels more responsive and efficiency is still around 7.3-8L/100km plus louder VTec noise :) If this was a bad idea or waste of time please let me know... haha but enough about that...

I've been contemplating the B20VTec setup.. actually my dad has a CRV and I've been thinking about swapping bottom ends and not telling him haha

I'm basically in the same boat as some other EM1/EK4 owners and would like more power and torque... whilst the B16a is a great engine it can become a chore to drive with a full car or in warmer climates...

From what I've read a B20Vtec conversion is more like an engine rebuild for owners of B series Vtecs whilst the K20a is a complete swap...

I know that the K20a conversion is more costly... but does the cost-saving benefits of a B20 rebuild outweigh the reliability/performance benefits of a JDMK20a swap?

Does anyone know roughly the cost of each rebuild/conversion for my current set-up? Just a ballpark would do...

Does the stock EM1 have enough stopping power for either or would I be looking at a brake upgrade as well?

[MikeyG]

you already got a em1 so buy a block, clean it up if it has high kms (hot tank), get b20 vtec kit, get type r cams, cam gears, dual retainers etc etc and type r thortle body and you will make decent amount of torque

[Chr1s]

K swap is a new kettle of fish and it gets expensive quickly. IMHO. K swap is a little more for the serious enthusiast.

The only real main reason of rebuilding the B20, is to do the conversion properly and do it once. B series engines are nearing on 15years old now so they are starting to get a little tired. It would be ideal to build that engine with some goodies here and there while you freshen it up for better power/reliablity also.

You don't need much to be very happy with a 2.0L going from a 1.6L. Most people rave about it and they are going from a 1.8!

[kraiye]

i'd also like to know about the brakes. would it be a legal requirement for a brake upgrade?

[MikeyG]

if you got drums then ye.. but for lets say em1 no they are fine

[Chr1s]

I've seen cars engineered with drums on the rear still.

Most of the braking is done via the front so if you can get a good set of pads in there, you're fine. That "brake upgrade" rule is used a little too loosely, we are not engine swapping some 500whp engine in.

[NSPYRE]

just curious, if u already have a b18c is it better to bore it out, sleeve it and run 85mm pistons or do a B20VTEC ?? would the results be similar?

[bennjamin]

gives you 1980cc compared to 1973cc's to begin with

[NSPYRE]

oh, how about 85.5mm?

[bennjamin]

makes it exactly 2.0l.

[ewendc2r]

is the ITR crank better to use in a b20 build?

I will be rebuilding my b18c7 soon -- but want more than 130-140kw@wheels. thinking of going to 2L or *gulp* lower compression charger build.

[Chr1s]

Same thing, but you will find B20vtec will save you BIG time - NSYPYRE

No, ITR crank is 2mm shorter in stroke. So stick to the B20 thumper - ewendc2r

[ewendc2r]

ok thanks -- read somewhere about the itr crank being fully counter-weighted and assumed the other models werent.... thought this might be better in achieving higher rpm capability / less vibration etc..

so im likely better off putting my itr engine aside for the time being, building a b20 slapping that in and then just rebuilding the b18 and selling??

[TODA AU]

Both the ITR & B20B cranks are full counter.
For a roadie, use the B20 crank. In a race engine, IMO, you're better off with the 87.2mm stroke & narrow R bearings of the B18CR crank.
+ The B20 crank needs more balancing attention than the B18CR crank & is more prone to 2nd order harmonics @ over 8800rpm+

[NSPYRE]

Same thing, but you will find B20vtec will save you BIG time - NSYPYRE


oh really?? as a rough guide, how much cheaper would it be? also, if u change the block, would u need to re-register it? (or whatever its called) because of the differing engine numbers? taking that into consideration, would it still be less than a bore?

lastly, i kno rod to stroke ratios have been discussed to death, but only changing the bore will keep the rod/stroke ratio the same yes?

sorry if some of these are noob-ish questions...

oh, one other thing. would a bore and sleeved b18c be more reliable as opposed to a b20vtec?

[VTec1987]

If u have an integra, upgrading to b20vtec requires only a blue slip to change the engine number. No Engineer Certifcate is required

[bennjamin]

If u have an integra, upgrading to b20vtec requires only a blue slip to change the engine number. No Engineer Certifcate is required

Right , because it is under 15% capacity range
from standard engine. This means , the standard brakes are
designed to cope with the theoretical power increase / loading.

[tinkerbell]

If u have an integra, upgrading to b20vtec - No Engineer Certifcate is required

if you ignore the emmissions test/ADR's etc...

[bennjamin]

if you ignore the emmissions test/ADR's etc...

Doesn't it come under the same rules as "replacement engine " ?

That is , using all emissions standards
from the chassis year ( ie obd1,obd2a and obd2b) etc ?

Easy on a b series to make it relevant to it's chassis emissions standards

[tinkerbell]

LOL, only if you don't change anything else.

so you need to keep factory B18 ECU, B18 Honda fuel pressure, B18 Honda air intake, B18 Honda header, B18 Honda exhasut etc etc etc...

[bennjamin]

LOL, only if you don't change anything else.

so you need to keep factory B18 ECU, B18 Honda fuel pressure, B18 Honda air intake, B18 Honda header, B18 Honda exhasut etc etc etc...


Good points , of which none would be relevant to anyone putting this engine into said dc2 or dc4 !

[Chr1s]

Eh? This is getting abit confusing. If we all "comply" to ADR/emissions, every single honda will be off the road except for the brand new cars. So I don't know why that was even mentioned, you shit stirrer tinkerbell! :p

If you put a 2.0L engine in a car with a 1.8L engine, there is NO need for an engineering certificate, just get a blueslip for a change of engine number, if the RTA hassle you, call superwog. If it has to do with dates of manufacture, then you're looking at EPA emission constraints.

It's not that a hone is cheaper than changing the engine number, it's the cost of buying sleeves, having someone put them in for you alongside the risk of having a dope install them incorrectly compared to an odd $500 b20 engine from the wreckers with good supporting mods that will be very rewarding.

If you have a budget to sleeve a b18, you have enough of a budget to build a pimpin' b20vtec.

[Benson]

K swap is a new kettle of fish and it gets expensive quickly. IMHO. K swap is a little more for the serious enthusiast.
B series engines are nearing on 15years old now so they are starting to get a little tired. It would be ideal to build that engine with some goodies here and there while you freshen it up for better power/reliablity also.



K-series is not expensive as most people would think it is. If you shop around, you can find a K20 running gear for a decent price (sometimes if your lucky a price of a B18c Type R conversion). Same deal with the B-series, you'll get yourself a tunable ECU, headers, exhaust sytem and Intake system. This is ALL required with the K-series as well. The extra money is needed to go into the Kswap engine mounts and the conversion harness. If your really tight on a budget, OBX make Kswap mounts and you can make your own conversion harness (there are a few DIY manual on the k20a.org). So how can a Kswap be more expensive real quick?

Remember guys, B-series is getting old. Not only is the engine old, what about the gearbox, driveshafts, dizzy, starter motor and etc?

Something to think about guys

[beeza]

^^ So true,the b is getting on now.

[GSi_PSi]

^ what about shifter box and kswap driveshafts, ....

[tinkerbell]

stop talking about K vs B

there are other threads fo that.

[bennjamin]

Any big builds on the way ? I know of one I'll be putting into a ek soon. Any others ?

[MikeyG]

pick up your god damm phone!!!!

[VTec1987]

stop talking about K vs B

there are other threads fo that.

totally aggree with ya

Benson and fatboyz- You guys use to Love b20vtec lyk nothing, y change of heart so quick, u got bad experience that u wana share with us?

[fatboyz39]

Nothing against B20vtec. Still love em too. No bad experience with em at all. The b20vtec built motor is faster/more power then the stock k24.

[KLR-16A]

B20s are an awesome invention. Iv got around 10,000kms on my motor as it was a complete rebuild running 11.5:1 cp with rs machine pistons etc. Iv only got b16a cams for now but the car still rips. Any idea wat cams would be good for the street??

[tinkerbell]

what is your budget?

cheap = ITR cams

expensive = depends on your other mods/use of car/drivability concerns...

[VTec1987]

what is your budget?

cheap = ITR cams

expensive = depends on your other mods/use of car/drivability concerns...

What are your thoughts of BC4 cams on 11.6- 12.1cr (b20v)
Recommended Cr for bc4 is 12.5cr +, you reckon it will still work with lower CR

[VTec1987]

B20s are an awesome invention. Iv got around 10,000kms on my motor as it was a complete rebuild running 11.5:1 cp with rs machine pistons etc. Iv only got b16a cams for now but the car still rips. Any idea wat cams would be good for the street??

what numbers are u getting out of those stock cams?

[tinkerbell]

What are your thoughts of BC4 cams on 11.6- 12.1cr (b20v)
Recommended Cr for bc4 is 12.5cr +, you reckon it will still work with lower CR

i successfully ran the BC spec III+ with stock bottom end at about 10.5:1 so they probly wouldnt be any good for over 11.5:1

so yeah - for a 12:1 cr maybe the Toda Spec B style, is that what the BC 4 is a copy of?

[VTec1987]

don't know the specs of toda b but bc4 specs are

Intake 306 12.3mm 0.007
Exhaust 302 11.8mm 0.008

[ZeForce]

Dont quote me on this but I think BC spec4 is a copy of skunk stage2 cams

[KLR-16A]

what numbers are u getting out of those stock cams?

I made 118kw, maxed injectors(type r b18c) and maxed out of air(type r intake manifold and throttle body with injin intake). Car has a mad tune on it, i ran 14.1 first time out full trim ek4. Its got heaps more in it the way it is. I wanna bye big cams for it, cause i already hav double valve springs and titanium retainers, so its ready for cams.

[VTec1987]

what u tuned it with?

[MikeyG]

I made that with a b20 slapper stock head

[Chr1s]

Cmon girls.. I mean boys!!!! :D

We all know it's just a peak power figure, that 2-5kw difference between the norm can be due to a few things we don't know about

You got a graph though Chris? I'm interested to see the torque curve.

[KLR-16A]

i got the graph on paper. i used a s300. lets put it this way, iv raced b20s on the street makin much more power than mine, and iv eatin them :). SOO due to my maxing out of air and fuel the car is still got alot more in it,

[Benson]

i got the graph on paper. i used a s300. lets put it this way, iv raced b20s on the street makin much more power than mine, and iv eatin them :). SOO due to my maxing out of air and fuel the car is still got alot more in it,

Never knew street racing is the new way to see who is quicker

[KLR-16A]

Never knew street racing is the new way to see who is quicker

Hey racings racings, regardless of where its done! and when i mean street racing i dont mean 1st and 2nd gear only :). And besides thats not the point, iv taking it down the 1/4mile, first time out full trim in ek4 14.1, with even my system etc still in :)

[tinkerbell]

Hey racings racings, regardless of where its done!

Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning.

It's not how you stand by your car, it's how you race your car.

You almost had me? You never had me - you never had your car... Granny shiftin' not double clutchin' like you should. You're lucky that hundred shot of NOS didn't blow the welds on the intake! You almost had me?

etc etc

[ewendc2r]

rofl -- so you do have a sense of humour TB?

[Chr1s]

hahaha, nicely done

[KLR-16A]

hahahaha lol i like!

[fatboyz39]

LOL gold!

[GSi_PSi]

will changing my gearbox make a difference to my kw or tq output on the dyno?

[GSi_PSi]

also went to charlies at yennoora there was a B20VTEC crx with jun spec 3 head 12+ compression anyones on here? how much kw out of that beast?

[ewendc2r]

if the ratios are different then yes output will be different. If ratios are the same, then the same output.
by example, a longer final drive (i.e. a 4.9 vs a 4.7) will increase the torque at the wheels but reduce top speed.....

[ZeForce]

Would make little difference on a dyno though....

[ewendc2r]

the difference would be entirely relative to the change in ratio - but yep, i see the point above.

[VTec1987]

I went through the whole thread but found NO information on the PCV system for B20 vtec.
Breather kit is a good start. Anyone got pics how its connected?

[ZeForce]

There has been a few good discussions about PCV setups in a few of the older B20 threads.

Here's a few posts that were made awhile back in my build thread..... not sure how helpful it is but Im sure others can expand further on some of the points made


also - you going to run a pcv system from teh back of the block?

you know about the Honda "spouts" from a Prelude (i think) that screw into the two hex plugs on the back of the block?

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/hcatch%20can%20nozzels.bmp


I dont think it is completely neccessary but it is probably a good idea since the 96+ blocks didnt come with a PCV tank on the back of the block. Reducing crankcase pressures stops blow-by and increases the life of the piston rings, some say it even gains a few hp from the engine being able to rev easier.


whereas i think it IS completely necessary, as the PCV system for B20B engines is integrated with the valve cover - which is discarded when you add the VTEC head... ;)


i have taken it a step further by taking a large port off the front of the head - where there is a internal baffle,

much like this (but one big 3/4in hole - not two 1/2in holes):

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/front_breather_tank.jpg

i have my catch tank mounted high near the battery, and i use the i use one port on the back of the block as the drain back point...


this whole article belwo is quite valuable - even if you are not going "all the way"...

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/


Yeah I was initially going to purchase the endyn breather kit, but they wanted $150 in shipping alone..... so I am just piecing togother my own, I plan to set mine up coming out one of those hex plugs to the top of the breather tank and then have it drain back into the other hex plug.


yep, it is not ahrd... i use a $20 eBay canister - and have added my own brass fittings...


I opted to spend a bit extra on a moroso breather tank since they are internally baffled


Also, here's more info on the setup I was running on my B20VTEC....



I used the prelude oil cooler fittings (part# 11107-PK2-003 make sure you also get the matching washer for that part number) which you can get from honda, they fit in the back of the B series block where the 2 large hex plugs are. I was running two 1/2" rubber hoses to a moroso breather tank/catch can with a drain back. If you dont care about emissions you can just run it with a filter vented to atmosphere otherwise you will need a PCV valve and run it from your catch can to your IM.

This is the breather tank I was using, moroso are expensive but they are internally baffled

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/126/l_c4fc4158adba1bb454d756cee28b6354.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/145/l_0875c35dd36d4466954b7250f2c0db67.jpg

[bennjamin]

RE b20's.....cant you just take the breather / oil seperator system off another b18c or b16a and run that like OEM ?

[ZeForce]

RE b20's.....cant you just take the breather / oil seperator system off another b18c or b16a and run that like OEM ?


http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/122/l_58039dd80aa147f68347ad4bdd8ede5d.jpg

[bennjamin]

thanks thats the exact answer why ! :)

[VTec1987]

nice info there Zeforce

[VTec1987]

Hmm so what will happen to the inlet on the Intake mani where the orignial pcv hose connect to? Do you block that off?

Instead of taking both hex plugs off, cant u just take one off and use the other one on the IM via the breather kit?

That way the PCV system will be close to stock

[ZeForce]

I just blocked off the port on my IM, otherwise I would have removed the filter from the top of the breather tank and ran a hose to my IM with a PCV valve. Also, you dont need to use both hex plugs but I used one as a drainage so I didnt have to worry about emptying it out and should also help the crankcase breathe more.

As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat....

[VTec1987]

Lets just say you did take the filter off and ran it straight to the IM via the pcv valve,
Any chance the oil from the catch can go back into the IM?

[Chr1s]

Don't worry about your PCV valve.

With the breather setup you no longer need that piece of shit setup. If you want to be emissions legal I can supply kits with the full coy to adapt the breather can to run to the intake manifold and by pass the standard PCV setup. Oil MAY end up in there but the moroso can I use is an oil/air seperator so I highly doubt it. I can show you how to run this with a normal setup if you already have one anyway, all you need is a PCV valve.

With a B20 I would run as many breathers as possible, especially being high comp. On a normal build you will be cranking out more blowby than you can evacuate properly. The key to good ring life and engine power is minimising the pressure in the crankcase, this is one major advantage of a dry sump system which pulls vacuum in the crankcase. With our breather setups, we can at best attain atmospheric pressures in the crankcase.

I would F off the OEM PCV setup. Block the port on the IM. Run BOTH breather hex ports and if you can stretch your budget, tap into the rocker cover.

[riruiz_88]

how would B20 aftermarket headers sit when installed in an EG with B20vtec?
i know the bolt pattern is the same for all B series, but what would ground clearance be like? its a 4-2-1 header.

[MikeyG]

Is it tri y?? Apparently it's not good for ground clearence. You want a decent header with ground clearence get genuine SSR headers or Genuine RMF headers both expensive as shit

[eg5civic]

i got tri y headers man, and they are shit for clearence... say.... a tube lower than my sump.. so near 25=30mm lower than your sump

[tinkerbell]

Lets just say you did take the filter off and ran it straight to the IM via the pcv valve,
Any chance the oil from the catch can go back into the IM?


this is how i do it (2.5MB):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac336/tinkerbell987/crankventB20.jpg

[tinkerbell]

you can see a breather filter on the rocker cover, but i actually run the OEM line from the intake pipe to the rocker cover...

[Benson]

Thats a balling breathing set-up

[VTec1987]

thank tinkerbell...
I know how to run my breather kit now

[riruiz_88]

reason i asked if aftermarket B20 headers would fit EG with B20vtec, i have found a nice set and for cheap too. but i also want ground clearance as well, and i dont wanna fork out the money if it not gonna fit. thanks for help boys

[MikeyG]

If you want ground clearence get jdm itr 4-2-1 headers

[tinkerbell]

the 96 spec ones?

[MikeyG]

98 ones

[tinkerbell]

JDM ITR 98+ = 4-1 header...

[MikeyG]

oh ok :confused: thought 96 and 98 would be the same so i guess the 96 spec ones??

most of the yanks use itr jdm headers 4-2-1 for good ground clearence

[ZeForce]

The JDM 4-1 will make more power though

[tinkerbell]

yanks dont care abt power...

[GSi_PSi]

jdm itr header suits 1.8L

[anster]

hi, would xforce 4-1 headers clear the b20b block with ease?

[tinkerbell]

a B20B is virtually the same size as the B18C, B18B, B18A and B16B

[anster]

a B20B is virtually the same size as the B18C, B18B, B18A and B16B

thanks tinkerbell.

i've got myself a b20b with a b18c2 head for my eg with a b16a in it already. do you guys recommend using the b18c2 head or b16a head. the b18c2 head equipped with adjustable cam gears and cams. but i dont have the IM TB for that head. would it be easy to fit the cams and cam gears straight into my b16a head? also which head will perform better?

[tinkerbell]

thanks tinkerbell.

i've got myself a b20b with a b18c2 head for my eg with a b16a in it already. do you guys recommend using the b18c2 head or b16a head. the b18c2 head equipped with adjustable cam gears and cams. but i dont have the IM TB for that head. would it be easy to fit the cams and cam gears straight into my b16a head? also which head will perform better?

the VTEC cams are all swappable, but check for wear on both the cams and head prior to doing so... if both in good condition, then go for it.

the head that would perform 'better' would be the one that is in the best condition.

if both heads are in identical condition, the B18C2 would be best as it is slightly higher compression ratio (but you need an IM for it)

[anster]

how do i tell if there is wear and tear on the head? i'll take a picture of it tonight and post it up. but as for my b16a head i won't be able to tell because its still running in the car atm.

im thinking of installing the motor in myself. but i'd like to know what are the rough prices to pay someone to install the motor into my car drive in drive out in melb. anyone know of places and prices?

my car currently has the b16a2 in it with i/h/e and ecu untunned. would i need any other supporting mods to make the most of the b20.

[MikeyG]

hey guys,

i will be doing another b20vtec conversion soon to my build. i have one question. Headgaskets and Camshafts

Chr1s or Toda or Tinkerbell can you explain which headgasket is best to be used for a b18c2 head?

tinkerbell i know you used the standard b20b headgasket but doesnt that block some holes? i was wondering should i go with the golden eagle headgasket?

Camshaft

Theres alot of camshafts in the market which would be best suited for b20vtec turbo (yes i know their selves are weak)

Camgears

Is all camgears do the same thing? or does each one have a specific output

??

Cheers fellas

[tinkerbell]

OEM
OEM R's
you need cam gears that wont break

[tinkerbell]

the GE is OEM, lol!

[Chr1s]

Whats OEM R's?

Use a B20 headgasket chief

[ZeForce]

Im assuming CTR/ITR cams

[MikeyG]

YE itr but the b20 headgasket blocks the holes on the head

[riruiz_88]

whatever gasket is used, it will block some holes

[MikeyG]

golden eagle headgasket doesnt block the holes tho

[EG5]

Nice breather set up tinkerbell!

[riruiz_88]

it does block holes, just slightly though.

[ewendc2r]

wasnt there a thread somewhere that clarified all this recently? Trying to find out where, was illustrated with pictures and everything.. There was one head gasket that had minimal restriction...

[tinkerbell]

golden eagle headgasket doesnt block the holes tho

even though it is made by Honda?

what actual 'holes' are you talking about?

[Benson]

GE uses OEM but bores the holes out for the dowel to sit in the block and headgasket nicely. I think thats the ONLY difference between the OEM and GE.

[string]

golden eagle headgasket doesnt block the holes tho

One gasket is the shape of the head, the other, the shape of the block - choose your poison, either will block something.

[MikeyG]

There was a guy that posted pics on b20 blocks with and with ge headgaskets.

Ge didnt block holes where as oem did i forogt where this person posted jt but i will find it and post up

[Chr1s]

Either way, alot of people are running GE, OEM, Cometic MLS combo's with absolutely no problems.

[riruiz_88]

here is what Golden Eagle has to say about head gaskets. you can choose the OEM B20 gasket or GE Vtec head gasket. they cater for machined bores as well. on HT many people swear by OEM B20 gasket, while other despise the OEM B20 gasket.

http://wiki.clubcivicquebec.com/images/0/00/Golden_eagle_frank_gasket.jpg

this^^^ on pg 2

[MikeyG]

thank you!

[tinkerbell]

soooo... which holes are you worried about?

[MikeyG]

top left and bottom right..

[zco]

if you're worried so much about holes being blocked then you should buy the GE kit

[tinkerbell]

top left and bottom right..

huh? huh?

[tinkerbell]

Whats OEM R's?

Type R cams

[tinkerbell]

if you're worried so much about holes being blocked then you should buy the GE kit

or buy a Dremel...

[kraiye]

i'd say from those images, th easiest would be to go with b16 gasket and dremel out the oil return holes. at least u wont have to deal with the rivets beingin the way.

[string]

i'd say from those images, th easiest would be to go with b16 gasket and dremel out the oil return holes. at least u wont have to deal with the rivets beingin the way.

You've obviously never removed the rivets before to hold that belief. They are incredibly soft and take 10seconds each to remove with a set of pliers. Drilling out the dowel holes on the other hand is more involved, something which IIRC you avoid with the VTEC gasket?

[Lerlo]

Whats everyones' take on girdles?

[Chr1s]

Don't need them.

[Lerlo]

Sweet, if you say so, thanks!

[MikeyG]

I heard it does more harm then good would this correct chris???

[Lerlo]

I heard it does more harm then good would this correct chris???

Wouldnt that be blockguards?

[MikeyG]

oops sorry thats right LOL didnt read properly LOL

[tinkerbell]

doesn't matter.

if you install a 'blockguard' or a 'girdle' on a B20 bottom-end without proper machining, you are going to be heading towards problems...

[Mugen_R]

hey tinkerbell

what injector size would i need for a built b20 with 130-140kw?

You think 290cc injector would be enough?

[tinkerbell]

i will be running 725cc ID's on my new one...

you need 440 or so for a high output B20 i'd say... depends on the ECU as well...

i was running Prelude 345cc on my old B20... (120kWish)

HTH

[newpaddy3]

do you guys have any problems with torque steer?

[ZeForce]

Shouldnt have any problems if you are running a LSD

[Chr1s]

If you don't want wheelspin or torque steer at the front buy a charade.:idea:

[GSi_PSi]

charades get mad wheel spins lol. especially the F2 Detamaso

[Chr1s]

LOL you'll make anything wheelspin ahah

[MikeyG]

I will make you spin chris * wink wink *

[Chr1s]

ahaha here we go

[Chr1s]

Just tuned a motor I put together last year,

RSMachine 84.5mm
Standard rods
Standard head
ITR cams
Toda headers
ITR manifold
Injen CAI (I'm starting to not like these)
2.5" catback

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6543/anthonyb20.jpg

It has an arseload of midrange when you shift into the next gear, it wheelspins like crazy on the street.

My comments on the build, considering it was put together without any porting anywhere, it's obvious it's running out of air up top, I didn't want to throw more timing at it there to make up for it due to the compression as it is. I'm interested to see what it puts down on another dyno as IS Motor Racings dyno is pretty conservative, BYP's B20vtec put down 143kw there which is only 10kw more.. damn dynos! :p

[newpaddy3]

Injen CAI (I'm starting to not like these)


excellent work mate! :thumbsup:
may I ask why you're starting to dislike the injen cai?

[Chr1s]

I don't think its the right length for these engines, they seem to be a little too long. I always get a drop in midrange before vtec too.

[fatboyz39]

FYI Chris- 143kw was on 80% throttle.

Setup looks good. I've seen this 90% similar build make similar HP.

[Chr1s]

lol ok

[delsol9000rpms]

my car was only 50% throttle and almost got that power because the cable was stretched:). nice power but think it might be abit of a high reading... dunno everyone to there own opinion.

[TODA AU]

I don't think its the right length for these engines, they seem to be a little too long. I always get a drop in midrange before vtec too.
Looks good & clean mate... :thumbsup:
You're right, in some instances the Injen can be bettered. Make your own on the dyno for each engine is by far the best way. (But not many people want to pay for it.)
To stick with the Injen & semi sort your issues, there's a couple of quasi fixes...
The std B16A intake manifold can help you out with the low end, personally I prefer the B18C2 2 stage intake.
Then there's cam timing. Retarding the exhaust cam (to increase the overlap) should do the same, looking at your curve, I'd guess between 4 & 6 deg (crank).
The other is ignition timing. You mentioned you didn't want to throw any more timing at it up there due to the compression. Try going the other way from about 7500... You may get a similar result doing the same in the later part of the low cam map too.

[Chr1s]

Cheers Ads,

Yeah, I was kicking myself that there was no cam pulleys to adjust, I wanted to play around a little. With ignition timing, I found that was the case, it made a little more power before it dropped off with less timing! It didn't like much timing in the low map area either, needs to breathe more!

[GSi_PSi]

wasnt there one same build that hit 145kw ?
also what about the projected 1/4 mile time be for it, its dc2 integra type-R box

[Chr1s]

145 was on another dyno, different bottom end, 3" catback, different intake, later model type r cams and who knows what other variables.

The only other RSmachine bottom end that pushes big power is dave's one he built for BYP

[GSi_PSi]

my car was only 50% throttle and almost got that power because the cable was stretched:). nice power but think it might be abit of a high reading... dunno everyone to there own opinion.
what was urs b20 build? or u talking about ur b16a? :S .. what do u mean by 50% throttle? so u werent pushing peddle down to the floor when u dynoed it ?

[delsol9000rpms]

lol havent you heard of sarcasm. your too gullable.

[GSi_PSi]

lol i didnt know u were talking shit, so used to seeing in these forums

[bennjamin]

lol i didnt know u were talking shit, so used to seeing in these forums


yeah...unfortunately sarcasm CANNOT be properly taken on the internet. Sometimes people are serious sometimes they are not.
Ways to tell if some one is being sarcastic tho....are if they post in italics.

for example

Hondas , are the fastest cars in the world ;)

[MikeyG]

But they are ben your eg was quick

[tinkerbell]

I love how on topic this thread is ATM

[ZeForce]

IMO I think people are getting a little hung up over dyno figures

[Chr1s]

True, but it's a shame it's the only thing that we can really "compare" :(.

1/4 times is another problem in itself, oh well. Make do with what we have available to us!

[ewendc2r]

Guys I am looking to build a B20 Shortblock and 'slap' my itr head on it.

Is there an advantage in re-using my ITR Crank vs B20 Crank?

Does anyone know of any 'fresh' built short blocks?

What is the highest recommended compression to run for street / race engine? (i.e. Running 98 Octane at minimum) - 12.5:1??

Sorry I've got a LOT of reading to do... lol (Cause these questions have been asked a hundred times, and answered differently too!)

[tinkerbell]

no, sell teh B18CR short block to pay for the B20...

it will cost you around 5000 for a built (forged) bottom-end...

plus 89mm crank is better than the 87.2mm crank for power...

[GSi_PSi]

toda has a built b20b bottom which might interest you

Our B20 combo's are:
1972cc B20B Short engine
$4350 outright
Basic high comp B20B prepared for Vtec conversion
Incl High compression 11.8:1 C/R cast pistons, ARP rod bolts, ARP head studs.
ACL bearings, full engine gasket kit
New rings, bearings, gaskets, water pump timing belt etc
GE Vtec conversion kit, B-series sump baffle
All you need is your Vtec PR3 or P72 head

[riruiz_88]

is this considered an average price? sounds quite good considering all parts/labour and warranty from TODA.

[MikeyG]

its a good price coming from toda, obv theres some that can do the same for cheaper but you dont know their workmanship :)

[grifty]

how much kw can the stock crank handle?

[ZeForce]

More than you will ever make naturally aspirated

[ewendc2r]

Yeah im talking with Adrian ... So many different directions..

lol -- anyone want a B18CR engine un-opened? What do they go for? 205 compression approx across all four cylinders.

Spreadsheet is looking a little crazy with all the different cost scenarios argh...

Adrian --- Thanks for your time again, always plenty of time to discuss with your customers!

[ewendc2r]

Great site on how to build a B20 -- With actual example measurements for machining etc and detailed instruction ...... Hmmm ...

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/