The B20VTEC discussion thread

[ericl33]

just a basic setup new rings maybe a bit of a refresh on the block and pretty much standard teg vtir head maybe a light pnp job and itr spec cams, springs and retainers or like a stage 2 skunk2 setup. hoping for around 130kw sound achievable ?
tell me why you think it won't last like an ordinary motor out of the factory?

[unl3a5h]

reading some things make me think everybody uses their cars as weekend cars eg "17000 kms on mine still going strong" i do that in 6 months :( lol dont want 100 kms a day decide it wants to wear out cylinder walls or anything and start burning oil or something?

[Touge Tom]

reading some things make me think everybody uses their cars as weekend cars eg "17000 kms on mine still going strong" i do that in 6 months :( lol dont want 100 kms a day decide it wants to wear out cylinder walls or anything and start burning oil or something?

iv'e had my b20v for 5 years now. it's my daily driver, weekend warrior and track car (hopefully will be @ honda national's this year). iv'e never had any problems with it. co's i had all the right parts machined and fitted. their fantastic. why settle for 1.6 or 1.8? and also 2 years back i found a great deal through my engine builder. a vti-R with a b20v with a JRSC fitted. so i bought that for my missus. and on boost their great too. i think too many people quote what they read on the internet whilst not having any experience with them at all.

[nate92]

Hey guys,

Im currently saving for the b20vtec build, ive been researching and asking questions of a few members and was wondering with your experiences, how much for a basic b20vtec build to get it up and running, using mostly OEM parts.

Thanks again,

[void-]

Hey guys,

Im currently saving for the b20vtec build, ive been researching and asking questions of a few members and was wondering with your experiences, how much for a basic b20vtec build to get it up and running, using mostly OEM parts.

Thanks again,

judging by your profile u have a jdm dc2.. either a type r or vtir... if u have that then 2-3k

[nate92]

judging by your profile u have a jdm dc2.. either a type r or vtir... if u have that then 2-3k

Yeah vtir, thanks man

Any advice you wanna recommend?

Nate

[GSi_PSi]

i put around 30,000kms on my B20VTEC, current owner last i checked was sitting on an extra 20,000kms

ran it on the dyno recently pulled 126kw atw

still running strong as ever.....

[unl3a5h]

think i might go ahead and do this aspaaa :P but final question how hard will engineers be? and how much will it cost?

[tinkerbell]

i'd comfortably say a B20VTEC built with a 0km bottom end and 0km head, would last easily 250'000km with normal maintainance...

[Touge Tom]

think i might go ahead and do this aspaaa :P but final question how hard will engineers be? and how much will it cost?

you shouldn't need an engineers cert' b20 is only 10% more displacement then b18. i think anything over 15% is a must for the cert'

[Alexx]

^ Pretty sure those questions have been answered time and time again in this thread, have a read guys :)

My old jdm b18cr decided to grenade itself spectacularly last year so I have been putting together a b20vtec setup for quite a while now for local track days (just for fun, not really following any rules). Main points of interest are wiseco 84.5 pistons, eagle rods, knife edged/grinded b20 crank, cnc closed deck, ITR head with OS supertech running gear and kelford 176-c cams. Final static comp turned out at 11.8:1. Had it on a run in tune with standard ITR cams and a Spoon header, standard jdm dc2 b-pipe + Spoon N1, ported ITR intake mani and 68mm TB and it was making 155hp at run in limit of around 6900rpm on 101's dyno. The powercurve with the ITR cams was not very smooth though, and came onto vtec pretty aggressively, the curve almost doubled its steepness @6000rpm upon engagement. Its done about 1000km and one track day on the run in, but I pulled the motor back out to do a few other little things to the car and have changed to the kelford cams and a larger b-pipe so we'll see how they go with a real power tune with more rpm and a smoother curve with more low down torque.

Even on the run in its a really fun setup to drive, and with everyone going K series these days there is still life in the b20vtec for sure.

Any comments on the setup are appreciated

[void-]

^ Pretty sure those questions have been answered time and time again in this thread, have a read guys :)

My old jdm b18cr decided to grenade itself spectacularly last year so I have been putting together a b20vtec setup for quite a while now for local track days (just for fun, not really following any rules). Main points of interest are wiseco 84.5 pistons, eagle rods, knife edged/grinded b20 crank, cnc closed deck, ITR head with OS supertech running gear and kelford 176-c cams. Final static comp turned out at 11.8:1. Had it on a run in tune with standard ITR cams and a Spoon header, standard jdm dc2 b-pipe + Spoon N1, ported ITR intake mani and 68mm TB and it was making 155hp at run in limit of around 6900rpm on 101's dyno. The powercurve with the ITR cams was not very smooth though, and came onto vtec pretty aggressively, the curve almost doubled its steepness @6000rpm upon engagement. Its done about 1000km and one track day on the run in, but I pulled the motor back out to do a few other little things to the car and have changed to the kelford cams and a larger b-pipe so we'll see how they go with a real power tune with more rpm and a smoother curve with more low down torque.

Even on the run in its a really fun setup to drive, and with everyone going K series these days there is still life in the b20vtec for sure.

Any comments on the setup are appreciated

i think your setup is great for lock track days plus daily.. are you going for 70mm tb? or staying with 68mm

[Alexx]

It wont be used daily. 68 should be more than enough, if anything ive been advised to go smaller

[mocchi]

i'd comfortably say a B20VTEC built with a 0km bottom end and 0km head, would last easily 250'000km with normal maintainance...

still got ur build blog?

[tinkerbell]

nup...

[mocchi]

nup...

did you use micrometer or bore calliper to triple check measurements
after you hone the block?

and checking piston skirts, main journals etc

i cant remember.

[tinkerbell]

no, i used plastigauge to check teh machinists work on the crank and block, which was all 100% correct.

i used a micrometer to measure the rod bots and used a rod bolt stretch gauge to install the rod bolts.

the piston clearances seemed fine, and turned out they were...

i am pulling the head off this week to get a spark plug thread repaired, so will have a good look at the pistons and bores then.

it has done nearly 20'000km and is running perfectly...

[GSi_PSi]

dave, this is the forged bottom end right?

what specs on your engine if you dont mind?

[unl3a5h]

you shouldn't need an engineers cert' b20 is only 10% more displacement then b18. i think anything over 15% is a must for the cert'

lol but its in an ek so ive gone from a 1.6 already now im at 1.8 will be 2.0 so engineers is required unless there is a loop hole that allows me to go 1.6 blue slip to 1.8 then again too 2.0??

[SLOBRO]

yea stroke ur b18 block n done hahaha no1 will ever no

[ericl33]

^ Pretty sure those questions have been answered time and time again in this thread, have a read guys :)

My old jdm b18cr decided to grenade itself spectacularly last year so I have been putting together a b20vtec setup for quite a while now for local track days (just for fun, not really following any rules). Main points of interest are wiseco 84.5 pistons, eagle rods, knife edged/grinded b20 crank, cnc closed deck, ITR head with OS supertech running gear and kelford 176-c cams. Final static comp turned out at 11.8:1. Had it on a run in tune with standard ITR cams and a Spoon header, standard jdm dc2 b-pipe + Spoon N1, ported ITR intake mani and 68mm TB and it was making 155hp at run in limit of around 6900rpm on 101's dyno. The powercurve with the ITR cams was not very smooth though, and came onto vtec pretty aggressively, the curve almost doubled its steepness @6000rpm upon engagement. Its done about 1000km and one track day on the run in, but I pulled the motor back out to do a few other little things to the car and have changed to the kelford cams and a larger b-pipe so we'll see how they go with a real power tune with more rpm and a smoother curve with more low down torque.

Even on the run in its a really fun setup to drive, and with everyone going K series these days there is still life in the b20vtec for sure.

Any comments on the setup are appreciated
why eagle rods? don't like stock?
is this what knife edge crank looks like?

http://i47.tinypic.com/21o0bio.jpg

what's benefit?

tried searching for CNC closed deck, not sure what it does.

any extra bracing?

[Water Boy]

The purpise of knife edging is it reduces the parasitic drag from the oil mist in the crank case. So basically it cuts through the mist and less oil condenses on the counterweights. All these kind of things cost horsepower. If you look at REALLY expensive race cranks, they'll be fully polished.

[ericl33]

The purpise of knife edging is it reduces the parasitic drag from the oil mist in the crank case. So basically it cuts through the mist and less oil condenses on the counterweights. All these kind of things cost horsepower. If you look at REALLY expensive race cranks, they'll be fully polished.
thanks m8.

[tinkerbell]

what specs on your engine if you dont mind?

bearing clearances 0.0015"
piston to wall 0.002"
ring gaps top - ~0.01"
ring gaps middle - ~0.02"
bore - 84.5mm
stroke - 89mm
chamber volume - 40.5cc
deck height - 0.017"
head gasket - 0.04"
piston volume +5.3cc

[Alexx]

The last oem rod I used is sitting on my desk in 2 pieces snapped in the middle. And the exchange rate was excellent when I got all the parts for this motor so the eagle rods were a no brainer.

Yes that is what a knife edged crank looks like. But that looks like a manufactured one instead of a modified stock crank. In addition to the above, it pulls weight out of the crank and balances it. My only real criteria when putting the motor together was that it behaved like my old type r motor, so i wanted to take it above 8krpm all day at the track and not have to worry about it. The response with all the lightened internals is real nice so far.

B series motors have floating bores/open deck from the factory, and with b20s the sleeves are particularly thin compared to b16s and b18s. Closing the deck holds the top of the bores in place. There are plenty of theories as to weather closed or open deck is the way to go (open deck for best coolant flow vs closed deck for bore strength), I basically just told my engine builder that it would be used for racing and left it up to him - but I didnt want to sleeve the block. You can buy 'block guards' to fill the gap but they are rubbish and place uneven pressure on the bores often leading to ovalled bores and premature failure. The block was placed on a cnc machine to trace the block and bores, and a plate was machined up with tapered sides to suit the motor and is pressed into place. The bore is then honed after the plate is installed. Cooling is addressed with appropriate coolant channels in the plate. I do run a large radiator though.

Its most likely overkill on an n/a setup but after my last motor blew I wanted to make this one as strong as (realistically) possible.

Im sure others with more experience can offer their opinion on closed deck vs open deck and maybe vs sleeves. Generally pre fabbed block guards like golden eagle etc are frowned upon though.

Specs to compare to tinks are
bearing clearances 0.002"
piston to wall 0.0025"
ring gaps top - 0.014"
ring gaps middle - 0.02"
bore - 84.5mm
stroke - 89mm
piston volume - 43.4cc
deck height - Standard
head gasket - 0.03"

[ericl33]

thanks very much for your insight

Appreciated.

[tinkerbell]

a plate was machined up with tapered sides to suit the motor and is pressed into place.

crank is not braced?

[Alexx]

To be honest im not sure of the exact specifics of assembly. It does run the stock girdle if that is what you mean?

[tinkerbell]

It does run the stock girdle if that is what you mean?

there is no stock girdle on a B20B block...

[FAITHLESS]

there is no stock girdle on a B20B block...

Interesting.

[tinkerbell]

Interesting.

or maybe it is more accurate to say:

there is only a crank girdle on B18C blocks...

[Alexx]

Well there you go. Like i said im not sure. Motor was specced and assembled by Jhh with a few parts off my old type r b18c motor. I can find out though.

[tinkerbell]

you would know if you paid for it!

[Alexx]

Its not on the invoice so I guess not.

Do you mind explaining in more detail rather than one line questions?

[tinkerbell]

Do you mind explaining in more detail rather than one line questions?

explaining what in particular? you have not asked a question???

this is an OEM crank girdle on a B18C:

http://www.tkrace.com/orignpictures/import/Honda%20Turbo-b18b1/crank_w_girdle.jpg

this is the OEM B20B crank & main caps:

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/xmas/Big_B_Bottom_End_1.jpg

[tinkerbell]

on a side note, if you have time - read this:

http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

i know it is too late for you now, but it is a good read none-the-less...

(AND SHOULD BE REQUIRED READING FOR ANYONE BUILDING A B20)

[Alexx]

Thanks, I have read that article yes.

I should rephrase, what do you mean by brace the crank? - I assume girdle? My mistake, i believe mine is not braced if that is what you are referring to. Correction from what I said before.

I am using arp main studs with the factory main caps.

[tinkerbell]

yes, there is only one way to brace the crank, and that is with some form of girdle...

[ericl33]

http://www.tkrace.com/orignpictures/import/Honda%20Turbo-b18b1/crank_w_girdle.jpg

Tinkerbell, do you think it is absolute necessity on a performance b20 build?

[tinkerbell]

Tinkerbell, do you think it is absolute necessity on a performance b20 build?

no...

[ericl33]

no...
in one sentence, what situation would require one?>

[tinkerbell]

any situation where the person decides that for their intended purposes they would like to add additional strength to the bottom end to make sure it stays together...

this is for when you are getting really serious:

http://erlperformance.com/components/com_gk2_photoslide/images/thumbm/238159jdbg0004_1.jpg

this is 300kW+ territory

[ericl33]

more information than needed, but appreciated anyway.

[GSi_PSi]

Dave what are your thoughts regarding my theory of the some batch of OEM B20 bores having irregular looking bores which often cause them more prone to crack.

ie.

The top of the bore circumference is a lot thinner than the rest ....
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3076/img6746vc.jpg


vs

my block, which has survived over 50,000kms

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/6930_134528781236_698711236_2957867_3215932_n.jpg

[tinkerbell]

my theory is that B20's crack sleeves due to poor tuning.

EDIT: poor tuning (or lack of any) that leads to detonation

[GSi_PSi]

even with boosted applications?

[tinkerbell]

especially with boosted applications...

[senna]

in one sentence, what situation would require one?>

Increased RPM is also a good reason to fit a girdle. Very common on Falcon 6cyl when consistently pushing past 7k rpm

[tinkerbell]

The top of the bore circumference is a lot thinner than the rest ....
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3076/img6746vc.jpg



that doesnt look like it is original OEM.

where is the piston code?

those look like RS Machine...

maybe it is a rebore gone bad...

[GSi_PSi]

yes that is a rs machine 85mm

[tinkerbell]

and it had cracked sleeves?

maybe the machinist didnt "measure twice, cut once"

[SLOBRO]

no it's not cracked just finished putting it together :)

[tinkerbell]

no it's not cracked just finished putting it together :)

gonna be interesting as the pistons do not seem to be centred in the bore?

could be an optical illusion though?

too hard to tell from that poor picture...

[tinkerbell]

and whats those particles in the paste on top of the pistons?

[tinkerbell]

could be an optical illusion though?

see how this looks? lower sleeve looks looks wider than upper sleeve edge?

22113

hard to tell whether it is equal on both sides without using a caliper to measure ;)

[SLOBRO]

gonna be interesting as the pistons do not seem to be centred in the bore?

could be an optical illusion though?

too hard to tell from that poor picture...
just looks dat way in the pic i checked the bores with a Telescopic gauge.

[SLOBRO]

and whats those particles in the paste on top of the pistons?
and again just motor oil when fitting the pistons nothing else, kept it very clean while assembling

[tinkerbell]

and again just motor oil when fitting the pistons nothing else, kept it very clean while assembling

cool, good work - cleanliness is key to a bottom end that doesn't smoke :)

[tinkerbell]

just looks dat way in the pic

yeah, thought so...

BTW - whens it going to be kicked in the guts?

[EKVTIR-T]

atomic batteries to power

turbine to speed

ready to start up

[SLOBRO]

see how this looks? lower sleeve looks looks wider than upper sleeve edge?

22113

hard to tell whether it is equal on both sides without using a caliper to measure ;)
that looks very nice was it sleeved??


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7645/img6742m.jpg
here a lil better pic

[SLOBRO]

yeah, thought so...

BTW - whens it going to be kicked in the guts?
i have already started the car a couple of times once a week atleast till i get it tuned and driven it up and down my street OMG soo much better than my b18c2

[tinkerbell]

no, not sleeved, no need as only pushing 160kW

yours looks fine, if it was bored by a proper machinist, it should be fine...

what is the P2W clearance? bearings clearance?

FWIW - i started mine, got it up to temp, checked for leaks and shut it down, then i drove it 50m up the driveway to a tow truck and had it run in on the dyno... seating the rings under load is crucial to longevity...

as long as you don't beat on it with unknown fueling, it is OK, but you don't want to risk it IMO... run it in on a dyno and she'll be apples :)

[SLOBRO]

no, not sleeved, no need as only pushing 160kW

yours looks fine, if it was bored by a proper machinist, it should be fine...

what is the P2W clearance? bearings clearance?

FWIW - i started mine, got it up to temp, checked for leaks and shut it down, then i drove it 50m up the driveway to a tow truck and had it run in on the dyno... seating the rings under load is crucial to longevity...

as long as you don't beat on it with unknown fueling, it is OK, but you don't want to risk it IMO... run it in on a dyno and she'll be apples :)

can i ask who you sent it to get it tuned and how much with breaking in the motor? the clearences i have them on some paper sumwhere in the garage lol

[ericl33]

can i ask who you sent it to get it tuned and how much with breaking in the motor? the clearences i have them on some paper sumwhere in the garage lol
I would like to know who offered you this service too.

[SLOBRO]

ive called a couple of place some places from 1100 dats just the first tune breake in extra 300 and some places 500 lol

[tinkerbell]

dyno break in is 400ish plus full tune around 750 (plus 40l of petrol), so 1.2k minimum is a good ball park (i am a regular customer of his...)

takes a whole day (at least) of effort by the tuner... anything less and you know it is not going to be done right...

Toda Racing Australia did mine, very very happy...

but when fully building an engine, you have to realise you have to pay for a tune to match your ECU to the engine combination that you have "created"

people who think they can run a 'base-map' and pray for the best are way behind the eight ball...

[ericl33]

dyno break in is 400ish plus full tune around 750 (plus 40l of petrol), so 1.2k minimum is a good ball park (i am a regular customer of his...)

takes a whole day (at least) of effort by the tuner... anything less and you know it is not going to be done right...

Toda Racing Australia did mine, very very happy...

but when fully building an engine, you have to realise you have to pay for a tune to match your ECU to the engine combination that you have "created"

people who think they can run a 'base-map' and pray for the best are way behind the eight ball...
can you please clear your inbox.

[tinkerbell]

lol, too many lowballers after exhausts... cleared...

[gbpracing]

lol, too many lowballers after exhausts... cleared...

B20Vtec Integra makes it to the track for some running in laps, at long last
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiYTRDIkd4o&feature=plcp

[illchay]

wheres the best place to get a b20/b16 done for your civic and wats the averge price for a b20.b16 built for power and reliability

[SLOBRO]

wheres the best place to get a b20/b16 done for your civic and wats the averge price for a b20.b16 built for power and reliability

do you atleast have a B series? if you do what bolt ons and etc do u have?

[gbpracing]

wheres the best place to get a b20/b16 done for your civic and wats the averge price for a b20.b16 built for power and reliability
Hmmm perhaps Im not the one to ask lol as my b20Vtec built to last I hope and to race cost me the price of a new civic. So I think start with a budget and shop around for the block and head. Those alone will set you back around $1500 to $2000 in reasonable condition. Decide for what purpose you intend to use it ! Street, track, drag and that will determine much of what you will need to spend.Get it right and you will be rewarded with a sweet strong powerful engine. Take your time ask a lot of questions learn and read as much as you can. There is a lot of good advice from a few guys on this forum who have proven results. They are very informative and a good place to start. We all want you to avoid the traps and we would all like to see your project be a success.
Cheers Gary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hwnKCTRsBg&feature=g-upl

[Touge Tom]

yeah. my story begins when my b18a in my DA9 failed one day. i had a b20b dropped in for $1200, at parts plus in camilla/rosehill. then a year later i bought a b16a from the same place for $1200. and had it dropped off at good performance. since i wanted more compression the mechanic there had a b18c head. so we swapped heads and coincidently he needed a b16a head for another swap he was doing & block. so he knocked the price of the build down. from memory i think i only paid $1000 including the golden eagle b20b vtec kit. the only additional cost was the $700 i paid for the head work and brass valve guide's. which was done at another shop 'round the corner from them.

so total $2900, cos i had already dropped b20b in my DA9. but including it $4100.

but since then iv'e spent more on all the other gear such as intake & exhaust manifold's, clutch & flywheel, 4.4 R/box, forged pistons(13.5:1) and rod's. R/crank. .50 over bore and girdle, cams and valve train. EK cat back system & VAFC2.

and in the last 7 years iv'e never had a problem with it.

[illchay]

yea i got a ek4 b16a2 and i only got a whale penis on it which does nothing at all ahah

[illchay]

thanks man that will get me rolling now :)

[illchay]

i wanna do frankstien so bad my civic is such a nugget

[Chr1s]

Must be school holidays....

[Riced_Civic]

^^ kekekeke

[the_joker]

my housemate has a 88 ef7 with b20vtec swap. it was built by dyno dave about 6 years ago, still going strong.

although he finaly stripped a rocker adjuster nut and is struggling to find another,

he also has a full turbo kit sitting ther ready to fit up once its running again.

should be a wild ride once it hits the street again.

[SLOBRO]

niceeeeeeeeeee

[Joeey]

Can anyone recommend a few good B20 frank builders in sydney? I will be building this one right with new bearings, rings, pistons, studs etc.
I was considering dyno dave but apparently he isn't around anymore?

[89lude]

Byp in the trader section can sort you out

[Joeey]

Byp in the trader section can sort you out
Correct me if i'm wrong but i thought BYP only installs and tunes? i was told they don't do engine builds.

[Benson]

I think you heard wrong :p

[_CRX_]

Dyno Dave is still building b20s

[rpm boy]

91 pages later lol
Has anyone tried different ignition setups on the builds they have done? Like the coil over plug setups that are going around or is everyone just using standard vtec head ignition setups?

If using a b18 block with a girdle is it possible to use the longer stroke crank and does the girdle need to be massaged to compensate ( not doing this but curious as to it's Clarence )

If anyone has done head work, how much meat is there to play with before running into galleries etc? Also do you have cc's per runner or end flow rate results?

How much is the going rate for sleeving these days? Going by the majority of people's results not really a necessity but ale
Ways good for piece of mind and maybe some
Boost if I win lotto lol

By the looks of things these days the b20 is a bit of a dying trend as the new k packages are simple enough with good results but still looking to play around a little for a bit of education.....

[rpm boy]

91 pages later lol
Has anyone tried different ignition setups on the builds they have done? Like the coil over plug setups that are going around or is everyone just using standard vtec head ignition setups?

If using a b18 block with a girdle is it possible to use the longer stroke crank and does the girdle need to be massaged to compensate ( not doing this but curious as to it's Clarence )

If anyone has done head work, how much meat is there to play with before running into galleries etc? Also do you have cc's per runner or end flow rate results?

How much is the going rate for sleeving these days? Going by the majority of people's results not really a necessity but ale
Ways good for piece of mind and maybe some
Boost if I win lotto lol

By the looks of things these days the b20 is a bit of a dying trend as the new k packages are simple enough with good results but still looking to play around a little for a bit of education.....

[void-]

try to contact dyno dave... if u want to build one.. or even tinkerbell

[farkmedead]

How does the frankenstein engines affect insurance?

[Touge Tom]

It won't affect insurance.

[farkmedead]

So do you declare an engine swap?

[Touge Tom]

As long as the swap is no bigger than 15% in capacity. There will be no hassles.

[CTR_EK9]

Hi guys, I brought a b20vtec from a member here a months ago now. Okay here's my story I'm getting my car tune (car still at the dyno) we have been having problem with my car, when the engine is hot the car backfire and Also ill be running 3 cylinder for like 2-3sec then it stop and comeback to 4 cylinder. We change the dizzy, spark plug wire, change ecu, change TB. Still doesn't solve the problem.. What could the problem be?? I just want the car to run good and don't miss cylinder. If any of you guys experience this before please share your thought. Cheers

[newpaddy3]

Hi guys, I brought a b20vtec from a member here a months ago now. Okay here's my story I'm getting my car tune (car still at the dyno) we have been having problem with my car, when the engine is hot the car backfire and Also ill be running 3 cylinder for like 2-3sec then it stop and comeback to 4 cylinder. We change the dizzy, spark plug wire, change ecu, change TB. Still doesn't solve the problem.. What could the problem be?? I just want the car to run good and don't miss cylinder. If any of you guys experience this before please share your thought. Cheers

Is there anything wrong with the injectors?

[CTR_EK9]

Is there anything wrong with the injectors?

Nope the injector are good. But the spark plug leads is old and kinda dirty. The car was running on msd dizzy but somehow that dizzy ain't in good condition so we changed to my stock dizzy, is there such thing as (timing the dizzy?)

[dougie_504]

yeah you just rotate it?

[dougie_504]

I know it's elementary but did you check/change the actual plugs?

[CTR_EK9]

I know it's elementary but did you check/change the actual plugs?

Well the dizzy from my old car I haven't change or touch ever since I brought the car, 8-9 months ago so yeah... I've done some reading on the net and most of the people recommended to change/check your spark plug wire. Will it be okay to drive it now? Cheers guys

[mocchi]

Ctrek9 you should open new thread for your engine issues. Even though it's b20vtec, it's technical issue not a discussion abt building b20vtec

[CTR_EK9]

Ctrek9 you should open new thread for your engine issues. Even though it's b20vtec, it's technical issue not a discussion abt building b20vtec

Fair enough. Will do cheers mate

[rpm boy]

take it to a reputable mechanic if this one is just shotgunning it and replacing everything, how is it running on 3 cylinders? no spark or no fuel? if theres no spaark u will smell the fuel, if its the injector try using a noid light to check individual injectors, also check if the ecu is throwing any codes or even better, try uning a scanner and showing some live data

[JDMasFCUK]

Hey guys, anyone here from Melbourne that has actually had or gone through a b20vtec? If so could you guys please help me. I'm contemplating on doing a b20 vtec swap into my ek4. Just want to know if their are any reputable b20 vtec builders & tuners in this area. If someone could get back to me via pm it'll be much appreciated.

[dougie_504]

For Melbourne I would hit up Josh @ Sleeping Performance

[mocchi]

anyone here used rsmachine pistons?
i know theyre cast hypereutectic like oem and thats what i want, lighter and tighter clearance.

wanna know how good they finish / pins / piston ring quality etc, say compared to oem.

[Chr1s]

Depends who you buy the kit from, sometimes I had the box come with different manufacturer rings in them, bit of research revealed that it is either Hastings (straight from RSMachine - which no longer exists now) or NPR if you got a "better" ring package (same as CP supplied). To be honest I've used Hastings more than once before and never had a problem. Both sets of rings are more than good enough for most applications.

RSMachine quality on the pistons is good, always double check the balance when you get them as with anything, there has been a couple of times when the pistons were supplied with the wrong rings and a "random" failed piston in a non B series application, didn't cause damage, was caught quick so just be sure to triple check what you have.

Otherwise you won't have a problem! :)

[mocchi]

Depends who you buy the kit from, sometimes I had the box come with different manufacturer rings in them, bit of research revealed that it is either Hastings (straight from RSMachine - which no longer exists now) or NPR if you got a "better" ring package (same as CP supplied). To be honest I've used Hastings more than once before and never had a problem. Both sets of rings are more than good enough for most applications.

RSMachine quality on the pistons is good, always double check the balance when you get them as with anything, there has been a couple of times when the pistons were supplied with the wrong rings and a "random" failed piston in a non B series application, didn't cause damage, was caught quick so just be sure to triple check what you have.

Otherwise you won't have a problem! :)

thanks for tips bor, im thinking of getting itr style 84mm/oem rods.

in regards to main bearing clearance, lets say b18c cos they use same main bearings as b20
service manual says 0.024-0.042mm

i wonder whats best for daily drive or say road race? i've always try aim for middle ground to looser side so 0.031 and above in the past and its fine
is there any benefit in going tighter clearance say 0.024-0.031?

5-30 oil.


btw does anyone here ever measure bearing crush when they did b20 build?
how did you do it lol.

[Chr1s]

With our special rotational tires, it will allow you to drive very fast. - JK Tyre



:)

[tinkerbell]

btw does anyone here ever measure bearing crush when they did b20 build?
how did you do it lol.

it's called Plastigauge and is very easy (and somewhat accurate) to use...

25078

[mocchi]

it's called Plastigauge and is very easy (and somewhat accurate) to use...

25078

not oil clearance, but bearing crush.

[tinkerbell]

not oil clearance, but bearing crush.

oh, then no, never measured it.

dont think i've ever needed to?

[Rayle]

Install the bearings, then torque down the cap to spec. Then undo the bolt on one side, leaving the other torqued. The cap will rise on the side you released. Use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the bottom of the raised side of the cap and the other mating surface. According to a book I have, it should measure between 0.075 and 0.152 mm.

More info here: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=p2L-RCMsWJoC&lpg=PA40&ots=S47nOX07_K&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false

Never done it myself though.

[mocchi]

Install the bearings, then torque down the cap to spec. Then undo the bolt on one side, leaving the other torqued. The cap will rise on the side you released. Use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the bottom of the raised side of the cap and the other mating surface. According to a book I have, it should measure between 0.075 and 0.152 mm.

More info here: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=p2L-RCMsWJoC&lpg=PA40&ots=S47nOX07_K&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false

Never done it myself though.

thanks rayle
yea read that, doesnt that kinda contradict with the whole point of criss cross torque pattern though?

just wondering if bearing crush will stay the same after it has been used for say 10,000kms
or reusing old bearing if its still in good condition.

wouldnt want bearing thats still in good nick but gonna end up spinning

[Rayle]

If you're just checking the bearing crush, I don't think it really matters about the correct torquing sequence over all of the main caps (but you should still do the incremental torquing of 25 Nm then up to 76 Nm). In the service manual, it only talks about the correct sequence when doing the final install of the main caps, and not when doing main bearing clearances. You should be able to do the bearing crush procedure one bearing at a time with no issues.

I'm not sure about whether the bearing crush will remain the same though. I wouldn't think it would change significantly over time or due to use, since then you'd have a higher chance of spinning a bearing later on, and I like to think that the engineers who design the bearings know what they're doing.

Since the actual force holding the bearing in place is directly related to the circumference of the bearing, I don't really think that the length would change significantly.

Honestly, I think you'd be fine to reuse the bearing if all of the measurements come out within spec, and there's absolutely no damage on them, but there's a helluva lot of people who won't reuse a bearing (including many who know far more than me).

[gbpracing]

Hey guys, anyone here from Melbourne that has actually had or gone through a b20vtec? If so could you guys please help me. I'm contemplating on doing a b20 vtec swap into my ek4. Just want to know if their are any reputable b20 vtec builders & tuners in this area. If someone could get back to me via pm it'll be much appreciated.
Powerplay in Cheltenham built my full race B20Vtec with 173kw @ wheels and he has built many hi end race engines. He backs his work 100% not cheap but you get what you pay for. If you need any more info on my build happy to chat, just PM me.
Cheers Gary

[JDMasFCUK]

Gary your inbox is full mind emptying it? Have a few questions

[tinkerbell]

hi ozhonda guys, look, i really appreciate all the "I was reading the B20VTEC thread and I want a B20 too!" messages...

but just to be clear:

1. no, i dont know of anyone in Sydney or Melbourne (i dont actually live there) who i would recommend to build you an engine.
2. no, i cant tell you all the parts that you need to build one yoursef, or how much it costs, or where to get it all from.
3. yes, i will consider selling my 160kW B20 race engine, but i doubt you could afford my terms.

im not posting this to be rude, but more so that you dont waste too much time punching out a PM to me that i probably wont reply to (unless you tell me that you just won lotto, or something... in which case i'd happily build you an enigine!)

[mocchi]

pm tinkerbell if you wanna win lotto

pm sent

[ALLMTR996]

People just want to over think there B20Vtec setups and dont listen to the correct people and read to much internet bull about what to do and what not to do,they like all Honda engines are not hard to assemble and if you build them as an OEM build with OEM spec's you will not have any problems the hardest part is finding a good machinist that wont tell you what he has been doing for years on cast iron push rod engines with 2 valves per cyl.

A small hint is find a machine shop that does machining for motorcycle engines because they know about TIGHT clearances because bigger is not always better they also understand how important balancing is with engines.

The other problem is tuning them with STD sleeves I just retuned one that came from a well know shop and is the 2nd one I have redone and it was WAY OVER TIMED and it was a very poor tuning job with only the 100% throttle done the rest of the tune was rubbish with very poor throttle response and it just drove like crap and the other tuner said thats just what B20's do.

[tinkerbell]

yep, Honda engines are easy to 'put together', but you also need the right parts - and the right parts are the ones that are machined correctly, starting with the engine block.

to have a correctly machined block you need a great machinst, so take it to a specialist - not just a workshop that does bore an hones for grocery getters...

then balance, weigh, re-check and re-measure everything before it gets to final assemble, and you know that when it starts up first time you'll be checking for coolant and oil leaks, not where 'that rattle' is coming from...

then you shut it down, put it on a trailer and send to to your tuner for initial break-in and around 8-10 hours of tuning.

easy eh?

and 30'000km later you end up with something that continues to impress with big numbers:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac336/tinkerbell987/b20b%20pistons/Jul2013dyno_zpsb2e14983.jpg

[INT DIST/TODA]

Nice to see it come together after all your hard work Dave, let me know how it goes on the weekend bud. ; )

[tinkerbell]

no worries mate, i am guessing people could contact you regarding the acquistion of a decent machinist service?

[INT DIST/TODA]

Yes they sure will, we will have a full machining, cnc cylinder head and balancing service available to all shortly, just in the process of locking in a premises at the moment, whilst its been a slow set-up, rather do it right once! ; )

[cbauto]

subscribed





again.

[ALLMTR996]

There are alot of B20's out there in Australia surely more people have questions about them.

[INT DIST/TODA]

You bored mate! hahaha

Will call you today too, WOT at the moment!

[ALLMTR996]

You bored mate! hahaha

Will call you today too, WOT at the moment!

Yeah a little bored I hate not being able to work.

[gbpracing]

Gary your inbox is full mind emptying it? Have a few questions

All clear, send PM
Didnt realize was full

[Of berry]

I'm about to drop a b18 head and b20 bottom in my ek sometime this month. Just wondering which arp head studs do I use?

Also I've purchased skunk 2 throttle body, intake mani and a full fujitsubo exhaust from headers to the exhaust. Wondering if there are any other cheapish parts I can buy before tuning to make it worth it.

[Vvvtec]

What are you doing regarding gearing?

[Of berry]

Sorry, this is my first time going this far into modifying a car. I haven't looked into gearing so I have no clue. Do you mean the gearbox? If you do then I have the normal gli box

[Vvvtec]

A Dseries box?

[Of berry]

Oh, just did a quick google and realised its engine based not chassis. I have a b16 conversion in my gli. So I have the b16a2 box ATM.

[Vvvtec]

I was going to say lol. Nice, the ratios in that are fairly good

[Of berry]

So gearbox wise I should be fine? I'm not planning to do anything else after the tune. Mostly for street use. Once my brothers car is complete I may occasionally hit the track with him.

Can I just use the arp b18 head studs?

[Vvvtec]

So gearbox wise I should be fine? I'm not planning to do anything else after the tune. Mostly for street use. Once my brothers car is complete I may occasionally hit the track with him.

Can I just use the b18 head studs?

Yes, you will be fine with that gearbox, perfect for the street. If you have the funds, adding a nice LSD will really compliment the setup, especially on the track.

As for head studs, I have no idea lol

[Of berry]

How much would a decent lsd cost? If its in eBay could you link it? I have no idea what to search lol

[gbpracing]

How much would a decent lsd cost? If its in eBay could you link it? I have no idea what to search lol
I have TypeR LSD if your interested. PM me
Free freight

Gary

[antish_r]

any did a oil catch can on the b20,,,having some probs

[Chr1s]

What are you having problems with?

There is more than one way to do it, the easiest way is using the rear ports off the block - you will need to buy the fittings or some people go to the effort of welding bungs on the rocker cover, just make sure they are baffled from behind.

[antish_r]

that's the way am going as well but,, i got only 2 fittings in the kit but now theres a hole on the other side as well where the black stock catch can was ??? looking at couple of pics on the net seems i need a Welsh plug of some kind

[tinkerbell]

now theres a hole on the other side as well where the black stock catch can was ???

here is the kind of bung you need:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/b-series-b18-b20-block-fitting-kit-for-catch-cans-/300708948948

[antish_r]

and am guessing i cant buy that separate ??

thxs guys

[lil_foy]

Have a search around, some companies do sell it seperate.

[Adrian @ SAS]

Got a vernier? Use a welch plug.
Buy it at any auto store.

[antish_r]

found a couple but they look like a alloy bung with 2 small seals on it ,,i wanna make sure it doesn't come out,,,,welsh plug FTW

[Chr1s]

It won't come out if it's the right sized Welch plug.

Quick google search;

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=729080

[lil_foy]

found a couple but they look like a alloy bung with 2 small seals on it ,,i wanna make sure it doesn't come out,,,,welsh plug FTW

Ive been running the alloy o-ringed one for over a year no with no dramas, you're not going to have anywhere near enough pressure to push it out. They are a decent press fit.

[antish_r]

you wouldn't have any pics of your setup by any chance andrew

[u mad?]

Ive been running the alloy o-ringed one for over a year no with no dramas, you're not going to have anywhere near enough pressure to push it out. They are a decent press fit.

douty washer

[cbauto]

douty washer
what would you know about b20's?

[lil_foy]

you wouldn't have any pics of your setup by any chance andrew

I'm on phone ATM so can't link but I used the IPG Parts kit, has two screw in fitting adapters for -10an on the back and a big alloy oringed plug for the oem hole

[Alexx]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7537248772_385db533d9_z.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8293/7537254022_46914174c7_z.jpg

[antish_r]

thxs heaps alex

[antish_r]

douty washer

lolol

[antish_r]

and the 2 port that has been blocked off in the pics what else can be done to them ???

[u mad?]

what would you know about b20's?
nothing

problem kunt?

[Super-DA9]

have a look at the Energy Dynamics (EnDyn) Breather Kit

comes with everything you need to fit it.

http://www.theoldone.com/components/breather/Breather-Kit.jpg

or alternatively, you can source the parts individually.

I am running this kit but my mate and I managed to make the same thing for cheaper using bits and pieces. Either way works great and reduces oil usage.

[Chr1s]

and the 2 port that has been blocked off in the pics what else can be done to them ???

What do you mean? If mean the black fittings with no hoses in them they go to a breather tank like the one above - take note that the breather on that is a defect as it's venting to atmosphere, if you want it to be "legal" it has to be plumbed back. (it's in that kit but that endyn kit is pretty expensive and his really slow to ship)

[Super-DA9]

(it's in that kit but that endyn kit is pretty expensive and his really slow to ship)

I got my kit in a week from the U.S. but he charged heaps for shipping and didn't ask me if I needed it that soon lol

I would've gone with slow and cheap shipping if I had the choice lol

[antish_r]

25730

[antish_r]

these ones

[lil_foy]

They are deleted coolant lines, I don't run a heater or oem oil heat exchanger. Nothing to do with breather.

[Alexx]

25730

The red circle on the left is one of the breather ports.

My setup uses prelude fittings out of the back of the block, and push on hose like what you get with the endyn kit

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7253/7435403102_5812513ca8_c.jpg

[antish_r]

nice thxs heaps alex

[antish_r]

b20 swap done yesterday car runs amazing ,,,now to the head which one b16 or b18 or even work the b20 head ???

[Renaissance_x]

How would a b20 go behind an audm ys1 from a da9?

[mocchi]

b20 swap done yesterday car runs amazing ,,,now to the head which one b16 or b18 or even work the b20 head ???

nice man, what ecu you using atm?

[Super-DA9]

His would a b20 go behind an audm ys1 from a da9?

A B20 engine will bolt up to a B18A transmission, if that's what you are asking. All B series engines/transmissions are interchangeable except B20A from old skool prelude.

[Super-DA9]

b20 swap done yesterday car runs amazing ,,,now to the head which one b16 or b18 or even work the b20 head ???

I'm fairly sure B18C2 head will give better compression over B16/ITR head, but B16/ITR head will flow better and also be capable of revving a bit higher with the factory valvetrain.

[antish_r]

the b20 ecu from the half cut CRV

[antish_r]

what sort of prices am i looking for a b18 or a b16 head

[antish_r]

nice man, what ecu you using atm?

what ecu can i use other than stock at the moment

[JDMasFCUK]

B18c7 / b18Cr head about $400-$600 without cams. If you could get your hands on a b16a head much cheaper then I would recommend you get it if you're going to be upgrading your valvetrain I.e valves, springs, retainers etc if keeping your head stock just go for the b18 head. :)

[mocchi]

what ecu can i use other than stock at the moment

i dont know lol

[Super-DA9]

what sort of prices am i looking for a b18 or a b16 head

Have a look in Parts for Sale section and see whats for sale

[antish_r]

okay ,,so the b20 head is not going to get me anywhere even if i work it out as in porting,,valves, guides,,springs etc

[antish_r]

always do :)

[Super-DA9]

okay ,,so the b20 head is not going to get me anywhere even if i work it out as in porting,,valves, guides,,springs etc

not really, when you can do vtec head for under $1k.

what compression ratio does your B20B have? I understand there's a high and low comp version? (early/late model difference perhaps?)

[JDMasFCUK]

B20 head isn't worth all that work just hold out until you get a vtec head. On firesport someone's selling a b18cr/c7 head for 1.5k nego if you're interested B18c head with buddyclub valves, TODA valve springs and titanium portflow retainers. all brand new parts with a second hand port and polished head. does not include cams.

[antish_r]

not really, when you can do vtec head for under $1k.

what compression ratio does your B20B have? I understand there's a high and low comp version? (early/late model difference perhaps?)

pretty sure is 9:2:1

[antish_r]

B20 head isn't worth all that work just hold out until you get a vtec head. On firesport someone's selling a b18cr/c7 head for 1.5k nego if you're interested B18c head with buddyclub valves, TODA valve springs and titanium portflow retainers. all brand new parts with a second hand port and polished head. does not include cams.

yeah saw that but he isnt nego on prices

[Super-DA9]

pretty sure is 9:2:1

if you're not changing the pistons it may be wise to run a B18C2 head with a skim, should get you close to 10:1. 9.2:1 is a bit low imo.

Run skunk2/blox intake manifold if you want it to be similar to an ITR head. I think you'd benefit from the compression increase more than having slightly better flow.

[antish_r]

i see

[JDMasFCUK]

Are you planning on freshening up the bottom block or are you just gonna slap the vtec head on ? If you're gonna freshen it up run the RS ITR pistons 11.5:1 ( CHR1S's recommendation :) ) Not too bad in price and they have similar characteristics to Oem ITR ones. Then that way you can go for a b18 head. High comp ftw.

[antish_r]

Are you planning on freshening up the bottom block or are you just gonna slap the vtec head on ? If you're gonna freshen it up run the RS ITR pistons 11.5:1 ( CHR1S's recommendation :) ) Not too bad in price and they have similar characteristics to Oem ITR ones. Then that way you can go for a b18 head. High comp ftw.

planning to do so,,,considering all the options,,,even turbo
dammmn 11:5:1 is indeed high

[antish_r]

B18c head with buddyclub valves, TODA valve springs and titanium portflow retainers. all brand new parts with a second hand port and polished head. does not include cams Price:$1500 neg

what do you think on that

[JDMasFCUK]

Honestly that's not bad considering everything is basically done for you, he is nego on prices so try throw him a offer. If you're gonna be turboing it then the RS machines are not for you sonce theyre cast style pistons. You're looking to go down the forge route onviously which will set you back a bit more ... All comes down to what your future plans are really. Yeah of course NA's need high comp, but in the end most of your power is from the head. Get a nice set of cams to go with that b18c head like skunk2, toda or m22x cams ( another one of chr1s's recommendations :) ) and you should be producing satisfying numbers after the tune

[antish_r]

thxs heaps to you and chris

[antish_r]

next problem,,,,car dropping in revs when i reach between 100 to 140 ,,,feels like a fuel cut or rev limiter but not sure

suspects :
1. spark plug is bkr6eix -11 instead of the normal zfr6 stuff
2. change leads to a 10.2 mm
3. iacv
4. tps

[antish_r]

anyone ?

[JDMasFCUK]

Could you be more specific about it dropping in revs? If you can hear it drop, and feel it drop I'm assuming it could be a clutch slip. When was the last time you changed your clutch?

[antish_r]

clutch is new

[cbauto]

next problem,,,,car dropping in revs when i reach between 100 to 140 ,,,feels like a fuel cut or rev limiter but not sure

suspects :
1. spark plug is bkr6eix -11 instead of the normal zfr6 stuff
2. change leads to a 10.2 mm
3. iacv
4. tps
I don't see the corelation between your problems and a b20.

You should start a new thread.

[Of berry]

Been driving my b18/b20 for about 4 months i was afraid to go past 6k rpm when i first got the engine and now im regularly pushing it to 8k rpm. Not one issue yet and the torque is heaps of fun.

[zeni-tani]

Been driving my b18/b20 for about 4 months i was afraid to go past 6k rpm when i first got the engine and now im regularly pushing it to 8k rpm. Not one issue yet and the torque is heaps of fun.

Dont expect it to last long

[newpaddy3]

Dont expect it to last long

Why?

You don't know what he's done to it.

[eekayfo]

whats peoples thoughts on b20's fuel consumption? with honda being green and efficient and all. for daily sub 3.5/4k rpm driving whats peoples thoughts on a stock high comp b20 vs a stock block and stock head b20 vtec?

both with the same boltons and stock internals/cr's 10.0 or 10.2 vtec (i guess intake mani/ tb would be specific but keep the headers/exhaust and intake arm/filter the same)

smaller ports/intake valves in the p75 head for better low rpm velocity and lower rpm powerband manifold, especially with 2l of displacement. swirl with the staggered primary and secondary lobes in the vtec head. and small bump in compression (i guess the increase in displacement would help with lower rpm velocity also...


i assume built b20v high comp pistons stockish non vtec lobes and associated work would have better km/l then stock.

all options tuned of course ;)

thoughts/experiences?




i imagine the stock r/s ratio would wear the rings/walls a little faster then a b16 at 8k, regardless of how well balanced ect the bottom end is.
dosent mean its gonna die in 5 thou klms though... what do you mean b18/b20 p72 head?

[Super-DA9]

Dont expect it to last long

I also want to know the reason for this

[newpaddy3]

I also want to know the reason for this

Because zeni-tani doesn't know how to build a reliable engine.

[ALLMTR996]

Only thing that blows up b20's is tuners that have no idea what there doing.

[zeni-tani]

Because zeni-tani doesn't know how to build a reliable engine.

Wow. Going down low there :)

Any engine for that matter if take on high rpm at all times will not last. Thats why you see many builders destroking the b20 from 89mm to 87mm (type r, b18c2) crank. Surely we all know higher stroke do not favour high revs as much as a engine with shorter stroke.

Dont matter if cast or forged no engine will last if taken on high rpm at all times.

Anyway just an opinion, each to their own.

What I commented above dont think is offensive. All I stated was it wont last long, dont think its right branding anyone. I mean that is what forums are for correct?

[zeni-tani]

Only thing that blows up b20's is tuners that have no idea what there doing.

Another factor, but there can be many variables to account for engine failure. It is easy to point fingers isnt it.

[ALLMTR996]

Another factor, but there can be many variables to account for engine failure. It is easy to point fingers isnt it.

Our STD Sleeved cast piston'd 84.5mm bore STD stroke B20Vtec was raced for over 12 months rev'd to 9600rpm with no issue's build them right,tune them right 0 engine drama's.People need to stop reading internet BULLSHIT about stroke and bore side loading and start to look into how to assemble and tune an engine correctly then they might not waste money building it with false internet information.

[zeni-tani]

Our STD Sleeved cast piston'd 84.5mm bore STD stroke B20Vtec was raced for over 12 months rev'd to 9600rpm with no issue's build them right,tune them right 0 engine drama's.People need to stop reading internet BULLSHIT about stroke and bore side loading and start to look into how to assemble and tune an engine correctly then they might not waste money building it with false internet information.

Well I commend you for your expertise mate. But it isnt bullshit, the fact that many reputable tuners and builders have done such set up around the world and me seeing several personally whilst Toda still existed in Sydney I disagree with you.

Honda them selves used it on the b18c on the dc2r because it is the best balance for performance and reliability.

Regarding side loading it probably isnt to evident since its only another .89mm diffrence compared to the b18c2/c5/c7 rod. Have you ever popped the motor to check?

Theoretically a longer rod does reduce side wall loading, surely since you're an expert I dont have to explain why.

At the end of the day the devil is in the detail. Building an engine properly is one thing, preperation is also another but the kicker of them all is the builders attention to detail. Its like a chef they all do the same thing but few stick out from others.

It is a discussion thread surely everyone is allowed to express opinions, im not trying to knock anyone out, so I dont see why there is any need for any agressive reactions.

[newpaddy3]

Well I commend you for your expertise mate. But it isnt bullshit, the fact that many reputable tuners and builders have done such set up around the world and me seeing several personally whilst Toda still existed in Sydney I disagree with you.

Honda them selves used it on the b18c on the dc2r because it is the best balance for performance and reliability.

Regarding side loading it probably isnt to evident since its only another .89mm diffrence compared to the b18c2/c5/c7 rod. Have you ever popped the motor to check?

Theoretically a longer rod does reduce side wall loading, surely since you're an expert I dont have to explain why.

At the end of the day the devil is in the detail. Building an engine properly is one thing, preperation is also another but the kicker of them all is the builders attention to detail. Its like a chef they all do the same thing but few stick out from others.

It is a discussion thread surely everyone is allowed to express opinions, im not trying to knock anyone out, so I dont see why there is any need for any agressive reactions.

What? lol

[newpaddy3]

350 Chevy uses a bore and stroke of 101.6 mm × 88.4 mm.

Bore and stroke isn't everything.

[Vvvtec]

The fuk you going on about Pat? What are you arguing?

[newpaddy3]

Everything.

[Super-DA9]

Agree with ALLMTR996. Build it properly, tune it properly and it will withstand much abuse. There is certainly a lot of bullshit on the Internet.

And srs there's no point doing a build if you're scared to push it once it's done.

[ALLMTR996]

350 Chevy uses a bore and stroke of 101.6 mm × 88.4 mm.

Bore and stroke isn't everything.

Yep they do and have a STD rod ratio of 1.637 so what are you thing to say?


And the 87.2mm ITR cranked B20's was something that Adrian believed was the best choice for engines he was building and was his opinion where I have and always will use a 89mm or bigger stroke with the way I build engines where the rules allow.

[Adrian @ SAS]

/\ That's pretty much the size of it. :thumbsup:
The cool thing is if you know what you are doing, there are many proven ways of arriving at the same / similar end result in power, torque, rev-ability & reliability.
& there is no set in concrete best way to get to the end result.
When you build a motor for a customer, you do it the best way you know to get the job done & meet the budget & power targets.
Racing refines your builds... & to some extent biases your opinions. That said, you have to respect what other do & take what you can from that & learn from it.

Now,if you're going to do it yourself, you need to gather opinions from those who can & then make your own decision.
If the opinion you're gathering off the net or elsewhere comes from those who haven't actually built any of these things, chances are you're going to come unstuck. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want something that works, copy a proven combo. The old adage - combination is everything still rings true.
If you want something that is at the sharp end of b-series output, you're likely better off seeking the services of someone who has been there & done that rather than troll forums for vague information.

[ALLMTR996]

/\ That's pretty much the size of it. :thumbsup:
The cool thing is if you know what you are doing, there are many proven ways of arriving at the same / similar end result in power, torque, rev-ability & reliability.
& there is no set in concrete best way to get to the end result.
When you build a motor for a customer, you do it the best way you know to get the job done & meet the budget & power targets.
Racing refines your builds... & to some extent biases your opinions. That said, you have to respect what other do & take what you can from that & learn from it.

Now,if you're going to do it yourself, you need to gather opinions from those who can & then make your own decision.
If the opinion you're gathering off the net or elsewhere comes from those who haven't actually built any of these things, chances are you're going to come unstuck. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want something that works, copy a proven combo. The old adage - combination is everything still rings true.
If you want something that is at the sharp end of b-series output, you're likely better off seeking the services of someone who has been there & done that rather than troll forums for vague information.

The best advice I can give is not one engine builder or tuner knows it all,but these E-CLOWNS that post complete rubbish seem to know it all.

[zeni-tani]

The best advice I can give is not one engine builder or tuner knows it all,but these E-CLOWNS that post complete rubbish seem to know it all.

:) love it.

[antish_r]

running b20 is the best thing ever trust me

[dougie_504]

^

What about a B21? IE: Can you stroke/bore a B18 to a B21?

[ALLMTR996]

^

What about a B21? IE: Can you stroke/bore a B18 to a B21?

95mm stroke 84mm bore gives you 2105cc engine with a sleeved B18c block yes and the kits are around for this combo.

[Adrian @ SAS]

**** I hate SK2 Pro 2 cams....
(they're a bitch to get exactly right)

End gripe....

[dougie_504]

Pro1 alright? Hehe

[Adrian @ SAS]

Pro1 alright? Hehe
Yeah, Pro 1's are easier to get working right :thumbsup:

I'd like to try a Pro 2 Intake cam with a Pro 1 exhaust cam.
Pretty sure I could get the same peak power & more everywhere else with that combo.
& likely better part/transient throttle power.
Either that or fit smaller tube headers to the motor I'm tuning at the mo.
(But they're DTR's & heaps nice :p)

[ALLMTR996]

Yeah, Pro 1's are easier to get working right :thumbsup:

I'd like to try a Pro 2 Intake cam with a Pro 1 exhaust cam.
Pretty sure I could get the same peak power & more everywhere else with that combo.
& likely better part/transient throttle power.
Either that or fit smaller tube headers to the motor I'm tuning at the mo.
(But they're DTR's & heaps nice :p)

That cam combo works very well but intake manifold choice is VERY VERY important with the Pro-2 intake cam the ITR style manifold will never give you what you want.

[Adrian @ SAS]

That cam combo works very well but intake manifold choice is VERY VERY important with the Pro-2 intake cam the ITR style manifold will never give you what you want.

Cheers for the heads up... :)
(& notification of my brick wall :( )

[ALLMTR996]

I know what your going thru I have another problem child B20 at the moment with a US ported head and a set of M22x cams it lacks lots
of mid range power and falls struggles to make power above 8000rpm.

[Touge Tom]

has any body got experience with buddyclub absolute racing cams,(I think specVI) on a b20V?

[tinkerbell]

Dont expect it to last long

my B20VTEC puts out 160+ and it holds 7 NSW hillclimb championship class records and has over 45'000km on the engine (that was built in my garage)

it is a daily driver and gets revved to 8600 often...

i guess it is not 200'000km *just yet*, but not really sure why you would expect Honda engineering not to last very long?


whats peoples thoughts on b20's fuel consumption?

the current 12.5:1 engine manages around 8.5l/100km, ive had it down to 7.6L/100 on one trip to CBR.

the two previous 10:1 engines ran at around 9-10L/100km.

fuel consumption on the road is all down to the quality of (and time spent on) your engine mapping.

[ALLMTR996]

has any body got experience with buddyclub absolute racing cams,(I think specVI) on a b20V?

Yep there are tons of much better ones on the market,
AGAIN I WILL REPEAT MYSELF NOT ONE THING MAKES POWER IN AN ENGINE ITS A COMBINATION OF THE CORRECT PARTS TO SUIT YOUR APPLICATION

[Touge Tom]

Could you suggest some with similar lift and duration?

[ALLMTR996]

Could you suggest some with similar lift and duration?

No I dont think so without knowing why you would want a similar cam profile and what your complete setup is.

[Touge Tom]

Ok. B20b. Type-r crank. Pr3 p/p head. Port matched skunk2 mani. Plm big tube header. 13 comp pistons. 2 leaf head gasket. Type-r cut back valves. 70mm throttlebody. 350 walbro pump. 240cc injs. 100 cell cat. 2.5' ex system. Buddyclub spec3+ cams & cam gears. Skunk2 double coilsprings & titanium retainers.

[dougie_504]

Your injectors are not going to cope

[ALLMTR996]

Ok. B20b. Type-r crank. Pr3 p/p head. Port matched skunk2 mani. Plm big tube header. 13 comp pistons. 2 leaf head gasket. Type-r cut back valves. 70mm throttlebody. 350 walbro pump. 240cc injs. 100 cell cat. 2.5' ex system. Buddyclub spec3+ cams & cam gears. Skunk2 double coilsprings & titanium retainers.

Sorry to be a pest but what car is it in and what gearing and really what are you using the setup for if its a daily I would not even think about advising on a cam profile.What does cut back type-R valves mean std ITR or modified ITR valves.

[Touge Tom]

Forgot adjustable fuel regulator. Well I had a p72 head with standard valves. And 4 weeks ago upgraded to a pr3 with type-r valves. 4.4 early modle type-r gbox.

[Touge Tom]

Daily and occasionally some Wednesday night drags and Wakefield run. Da9 hasn't been to either yet.

[Touge Tom]

Oh and got a set of OBD0 340cc on hand too.

[antish_r]

anyone has some pics of their oil cooler setup on a b18 or b20

[jdmTYPE R]

**** I hate SK2 Pro 2 cams....
(they're a bitch to get exactly right)

End gripe....
Hahah speaking from experience? But u know once u get it right the result is worth it...

[.Dave]

Wondering knowledgeable peoples top 3 picks for b20vtec (b20b8, standard bore, b16 head, cams/springs etc) for pistons and rods, any I can buy locally or better off getting elsewhere, cheers

[stndrd]

Dave send me a PM and we can talk about a few things

[cbauto]

Dave send me a PM and we can talk about a few things

You sound really desperate.

Not selling enough PLM and penrite?

[.Dave]

Hey guys,

just after information/experiences/thoughts on using this piston/rod combo on my b20vtec, are the JE pistons decent?

What other pistons (looking at 84.5mm) do you recommend, with about a 11.5.1 compression ratio

[tinkerbell]

yeah, stick with quality US parts and you cant go wrong, 84.5 is good, 11.5 is OK, but 12.5 is better,

but you must match your cams, head porting and CR to get the best outcome.

the quality of machinist you use is also very important to the end result.

like has been said ad nauseam through out this threa...

[.Dave]

yeah, I was just thiking 12.5 might be a little extreme for a daily

who is the general go to guy for b20vtec machining and the like

[tinkerbell]

12.5:1 = free power.

as long as you can get 98 octane, have a very good engine tuner and support package (like good injectors, fuel pump(s), ignition system, ECU, etc) you'll be fine.

my engine tuner organised my machining, so i cant say...

[cbauto]

Running 12.7 on 98.

Daily driver. 1.8 though

[.Dave]

True. I'll look into it, I don't want to have to upgrade too much

[eekayfo]

bigger bore/stroke also means that you need less of a dome to achieve the same c/r compared to a b18 or even more b16. huge wedges all up in the chamber can mess with cylinder filling and flame propagation. now im not saying more c/r is bad, or that huge wedges make things worse ;) just its good to know what affect changing something has. much like something that helps the engine breath at high rpm, can hurt it down low... the beauty of c/r is its effect on performance is not rpm dependent, unlike alot of engine components.

if you dont want to spend too much, rs machines are hugely popular cast pistons. and you can get close to 12:1 with a p72 head and some head and block milling. half the price of forgies and give you a nice bump in comp whilst keeping it safe for the street.


are you getting cams?

[.Dave]

yeah I was looking into the rs machines too

im thinking of kelfords, but not sure, eventually I do want cams, yes

[gbpracing]

yeah I was looking into the rs machines too

im thinking of kelfords, but not sure, eventually I do want cams, yes

Stay away from Kelford Cams, I was originally looking to use them but found the support and delivery times as slack.
I went with Toda C2 for my build and got very good results.
Cheers

[stndrd]

Rocket Motorsports M22KE or M24XX are a good option for a highish comp B20

[.Dave]

Any reccommendations on pistons and rods? or for a basic build are standard pistons and cams also useable (will be tracked once or twice a year, but a lot of daily driving).

Is anyone here or all asleep?