The B20VTEC discussion thread

[Chr1s]

Ok, I've started to notice an increased frequency of B20VTEC chatter lately on here. I remember back in the day when it was looked down upon (read: overheating issues, etc), oh how the times have changed :cool:

Anyway, I'm sure there is alot of people out there with queries about this setup, so here is the thread designed for questions and theory -an up to date one anyway!

There is many of us on here who can provide you with the answers you're looking for.

[beeza]

I've been watching b20 turbo vids on youtube.Man,Sick!

The torque is incredible!

[ALLMTR996]

Ok, I've started to notice an increased frequency of B20VTEC chatter lately on here. I remember back in the day when it was looked down upon (read: overheating issues, etc), oh how the times have changed :cool:

Anyway, I'm sure there is alot of people out there with queries about this setup, so here is the thread designed for questions and theory -an up to date one anyway!

There is many of us on here who can provide you with the answers you're looking for.

Nice one its about time this thread started.

[GSi_PSi]

lets talk about the myth of the unreliable rod stroke ratioss??
why do people bash the B20B/B18B on their 1.54:1 ratio while the K24 which shares the same ratio, no one brings it up..
Fair enough if you have a track car you wont want something way off the ideal 1.75:1.. But the B18C and the H22A share a ratio of 1.58:1 surely honda knew what they were doing when they made the rod/stroke of these engines which are regularly used in their type-R range (DC2R,Euro-R,Prelude-S) Which are supposed to be out of the box track/road cars.

[MikeyG]

also i love it when some1 mentions b20vtec they auto think the block wont handle the vtec.. ok fair enough b20 wasn't built vtec but with quality parts it will be as reliable as normal type r conversions

PLUS its cheaper to do from a b16a to type r conversion plus the extra 200c of torque goodness!!!

[ALLMTR996]

The biggest problem was there where alot built in Aus that where just plain garbage they made no power and where not reliable at all.When you look at Tinkerbells build it really showed what can be done with a basic build and dont listen to all the internet crap.

[DWU]

Just to vouch for Tinkerbell's quality - the first B20VTEC he built (2002) is still going hard to this day =)

I'm sure he will see this thread soon..

[bennjamin]

can we leave this to people interested in B20 conversions.....

not spam from past and present B20 owners , or builders plugging services ? lol.

[RandyRhydah]

Ok i hear alot of chatter about block guarding.. i think it will be good 50 dollar security.. whos done it? why should/shouldent you do it? will it realy disrupt coolant flow?

i want to push 11.5:1 - 12:1 compression in my b20 build on stock sleeves. obviously aftermarket rods / pistons / headstuds with new bearings / oil pump / water pump and probably neptune. Any advice for this future b20vtec warrior?

[Chr1s]

lets talk about the myth of the unreliable rod stroke ratioss??
why do people bash the B20B/B18B on their 1.54:1 ratio while the K24 which shares the same ratio, no one brings it up..
Fair enough if you have a track car you wont want something way off the ideal 1.75:1.. But the B18C and the H22A share a ratio of 1.58:1 surely honda knew what they were doing when they made the rod/stroke of these engines which are regularly used in their type-R range (DC2R,Euro-R,Prelude-S) Which are supposed to be out of the box track/road cars.

Alot of people bash things for no reason Sam as you probbaly know by now, I personally feel on a block with bores less than 90mm there is not much of a greater issue with rod ratio's, I'd still like to run something over 1.6 as anything lower shows increased awareness with longevity when applied to certain circumstances, etc. I find there is greater torque to be produced with a closer-to-ideal R/S ratio

The main issue with B series, especially the B20, is the blocks. They are not very rigid and the castings are never as accurate as most b16/b18 units. Throw some decent enough power into them and the block will flex. Sleeving and block girdles are options, but there is a massive influence on WHO does the machining, if they are out ever so slightly, the motor won't last.



Ok i hear alot of chatter about block guarding.. i think it will be good 50 dollar security.. whos done it? why should/shouldent you do it? will it realy disrupt coolant flow?

i want to push 11.5:1 - 12:1 compression in my b20 build on stock sleeves. obviously aftermarket rods / pistons / headstuds with new bearings / oil pump / water pump and probably neptune. Any advice for this future b20vtec warrior?

I havn't had experiance as of yet with guarding mainly for the reason that I don't like it's impedance on coolant flow. It's abit of a "what to do?" situation as we know the block is fairly weak compared to other honda castings, if I was you, decide on the guard and take it to a machinist, have him rework the gaps for the coolant to flow and enlarge them, leaving more room for coolant to flow than cylinder wall to block metal surface area, as long as there is a uniform tension on the sleeve, the lack of metal will have no effect. Then have the machinist install it in the block and get the bores done. Don't pull it out of the block later.

11.5-12 is a good CR, I would stick to cast style pistons for your build, there is no need for forgies. Unless your planning for something later.

It's all in the assembly :thumbsup:

[ALLMTR996]

Ok i hear alot of chatter about block guarding.. i think it will be good 50 dollar security.. whos done it? why should/shouldent you do it? will it realy disrupt coolant flow?

i want to push 11.5:1 - 12:1 compression in my b20 build on stock sleeves. obviously aftermarket rods / pistons / headstuds with new bearings / oil pump / water pump and probably neptune. Any advice for this future b20vtec warrior?

Block guards are a complete waste of time and do more damage than good they put pressure on the sleeves thats not needed the B20 sleeves are not that weak it was just poor tuning and bad combination of parts that led to engine failures,12 to 1 is fine on STD sleeves but in a car driven on the street 95% of its life 11 to 1 will make more than enough power (11 to 1 comp BYP B20 150+KW unported head) tuning of the setups is the most IMPORTANT part of the package with good bolt-ons to support the engine.
Guys we are talking B series Vtec Honda heads here and they have good airflow and compression is not the total answer to making a solid engine with good reliableblity.

[bennjamin]

lets talk about the myth of the unreliable rod stroke ratioss??
why do people bash the B20B/B18B on their 1.54:1 ratio while the K24 which shares the same ratio, no one brings it up..



...because the k24 has rods developed designed and proven alot more recent in time. AFAIK these will out last and outperform the b20b/b18bs rods anyday.


But this isnt about that. This thread is about b20s and the whole VTEC build/conversion for all the inquiring people out there.




To ask a question , what is the minimum work to get a PR3 headset on a b20 block ? What cost is this ? What power is this ?

[RandyRhydah]

Thanks for the info guys, im planning on keeping stock 84 bore and im yet to make up my mind if im going to assemble it myself or pay the extra dollars and get it done by an engine reco shop. it is a daily driver with circuit / sprints mainly in mind but would like to see what it does on the quarter aswell. Basemap is going to be done my myself and a small street tune while the engine is being run in, then will be off to the dyno for a full tune. It is a long term project im sure ill keep coming back to this thread for info / advice.

cheers guys

[Chr1s]

To ask a question , what is the minimum work to get a PR3 headset on a b20 block ? What cost is this ? What power is this ?

Minimum work:

Tap/Block off oil feed hole in the head
Remove copper block off plug near intake manifold/coolant jacket
Install some sort of adapter to get the oil line to bolt in
Oil Feed line from oil pressure switch or a sandwhich plate

All of the above is contained in a VTEC conversion kit really.

IMHO - fitting a b16 head straight onto the block is the simple way out, I will be doing these heads with changed geometry to suit a b20 motor better shortly. There is alot to be gained by working the head correctly.

Power - hard to say, around 120kwATW. But this depends on ring seal, head condition, tune, day, whos dyno, bla bla.

[bennjamin]

Minimum work:

Tap/Block off oil feed hole in the head
Remove copper block off plug near intake manifold/coolant jacket
Install some sort of adapter to get the oil line to bolt in
Oil Feed line from oil pressure switch or a sandwhich plate

All of the above is contained in a VTEC conversion kit really.

IMHO - fitting a b16 head straight onto the block is the simple way out, I will be doing these heads with changed geometry to suit a b20 motor better shortly. There is alot to be gained by working the head correctly.

Power - hard to say, around 120kwATW. But this depends on ring seal, head condition, tune, day, whos dyno, bla bla.


The question is not for myself but for the general populace for better understanding exactly WHAT is involved......as say compared to the usual B18c7 halfcut conversion package or b18c2 package.

Chris you dont mind to sum up a power-price ratio package on average ?

Remember guys n girls....when quoted X amont to build a b20 remember you also need running gear ontop :)

[RandyRhydah]

all adds up after a while.. sure you can pick up the block / pistons / rods and cams / springs / retainers.. then injectors / fuel pump / clutch etc starts adding $$$.. things i didnt think about untill about a month ago lol

[Chr1s]

Sure Ben,

I will do a fairly lengthy write up with pro/cons for both and typical builds from street to race. I think this should be a sticky soon.

[riruiz_88]

here is what Golden Eagle has to say about head gaskets. you can choose the OEM B20 gasket or GE Vtec head gasket. they cater for machined bores as well. on HT many people swear by OEM B20 gasket, while other despise the OEM B20 gasket.

http://wiki.clubcivicquebec.com/images/0/00/Golden_eagle_frank_gasket.jpg

[GSi_PSi]

...because the k24 has rods developed designed and proven alot more recent in time. AFAIK these will out last and outperform the b20b/b18bs rods anyday.


But this isnt about that. This thread is about b20s and the whole VTEC build/conversion for all the inquiring people out there.




To ask a question , what is the minimum work to get a PR3 headset on a b20 block ? What cost is this ? What power is this ?

Ben i dont think they are concerned about the actual rod, its about the stress or piston speed produced at the higher rpms, which the k24 will not be immune to

[e240]

From what i've seen around, a stock B18C Type R Conversion seems to hold it value better than a pieced together B20 - No matter how "good" the B20 is - somehow buying such engines always carry an inherent risk and most would rather build one themselves where they are abit more certain about the parts used.

and I think this was also discussed before that a B20 conversion is only cost effective if you've already have a B Series VTEC engine, otherwise, you're still up for cost to purchase ancillary parts such as gearbox, intake manifold etc etc

[VTec1987]

From what i've seen around, a stock B18C Type R Conversion seems to hold it value better than a pieced together B20 - No matter how "good" the B20 is - somehow buying such engines always carry an inherent risk and most would rather build one themselves where they are abit more certain about the parts used.

and I think this was also discussed before that a B20 conversion is only cost effective if you've already have a B Series VTEC engine, otherwise, you're still up for cost to purchase ancillary parts such as gearbox, intake manifold etc etc

totally agree with ya

[Chr1s]

Sorry I disagree.

A type R motor to me nowdays is overpriced for what it is, for a start they are second hand when most B20VTEC motors are rebuilt.

There is a misconception of reliability because of the people who build them.

You telling me now a 150kw B20vtec is going to "decide" to crack a sleeve after 200xxx km? lol.

[ALLMTR996]

From what i've seen around, a stock B18C Type R Conversion seems to hold it value better than a pieced together B20 - No matter how "good" the B20 is - somehow buying such engines always carry an inherent risk and most would rather build one themselves where they are abit more certain about the parts used.

and I think this was also discussed before that a B20 conversion is only cost effective if you've already have a B Series VTEC engine, otherwise, you're still up for cost to purchase ancillary parts such as gearbox, intake manifold etc etc

Do you think this is because of the B20's bad name off blowing up or the fact that people just have to have a B18c.The rest I agree with you as far as having to buy everything if you dont already have a B Vtec setup.

[GSi_PSi]

I didnt have a b Series engine, yet my setup was way cheaper than a B18CR and my stock setup makes 121kw atw,152tq.

and also with the B20's blowing up, maybe in the states but down here ive herd of more factory motors blowing compared to frakensteins.

[riruiz_88]

what shafts would be needed? are D and B series shafts the "same"?

[VTec1987]

they are different

[MikeyG]

nope they are different and would need b series shafts..

and also the reason why bit og the b20s over the states blow up is casue some use shit quality parts, use used dodgy parts, or go half assed. some dont even tune it properly.

[riruiz_88]

and preparation/assembly of engine

[90LAN]

alot of discussion about pro's and cons

but still waiting for prices for a complete average turn key b20 that makes a avg 120kw atws on a average dyno

gsi psi what did you set up cost ?

i like the b20 and interested in its dollar value compared to its power out put and reliability

b20 is it a poormans k20?
like ls vtec is poor mans type r

[RandyRhydah]

b20 is it a poormans k20?
like ls vtec is poor mans type r

Thats how i feel about it... maybe not as quick as a k20 but should hold its own from what ive seen on honda-tech etc

im starting my project from a sir-g b18c so it will be alot more simple for me then those going from the d series or b18bs

I know the veriables will differ from car to car and driver to driver but about what 1320 time is expected from a fully street car built b20 vtec? im hoping for mid 13s on street radials with an eg...

[riruiz_88]

H2B is poor man K series as well. its how its built is what determines the reliability. i do like the idea of B20 too.

[tinkerbell]

There is a misconception of reliability because of the people who build them.

i found it quite heartening to hear recently that my first B20VTEC i built back ages ago is still running! not sure where, but it is apparently still strong...

i revved that pretty hard and the key i think to its longevity is perhaps how it is still basically OEM honda inside... (ran 13.7 @101mph at WSID)

i think the more important aspect is not who BUILT - it but who TUNED it...

IMO - poor tuning breaks B20's, not high RPM/side-load/RS ratio etc...

both guys who handled my tuning knew what to do, so make sure if you do a B20VTEC - get it tuned by a experienced tuner...



BTW - instead of re-inventing the wheel, guys have a read of this thread before asking simple questions:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1676914

[tinkerbell]

here is what Golden Eagle has to say about head gaskets. you can choose the OEM B20 gasket or GE Vtec head gasket. they cater for machined bores as well. on HT many people swear by OEM B20 gasket, while other despise the OEM B20 gasket.

yeah, i have used OEM HG's and once used a Cometic...

the Cometic went bad, but could have been from abuse, but i have never had a problem running and OEM HG...

that said, i will be using a GE bored HG on my new 84.5mm build...

[e240]

Do you think this is because of the B20's bad namff blowing up or the fact that people just have to have a B18c.The rest I agree with you as far as having to buy everything if you dont already have a B Vtec setup.

Abit of both definately, but I also think its more the mentality of the modifier. Modifiying for most of us is a journey, an adventure. We want to do it the hard way but its our own. So we look for something relatively stock and then work our way up from there, whether the end product is a B20 or a Built B18C. Buying someone's elses B20 or built B18 kinda defeats that purpose - But I will caveat that with, unless of course, the price is right.


To Chris, a typical JDM Integra Type R half cut is around $5K now - Simple to plug and play into any EFI civic, a B20, if you're totally starting from scratch, will cost a fair bit more, especially when you consider you need ECU, tuning, gearbox, driveshafts - pretty sure that while the engine is out, you'd want pistons etc etc - and then at least another grand more (and thats probably a cheap price) if you get someone to build it.

I agree that everything will be "brand new", never disputed that, but my point is that its not as cheap as made out to be. I also agree that if you have a current B series that needs rebuilding, a B20 would probably be the way to go.

[tinkerbell]

To Chris, a typical JDM Integra Type R half cut is around $5K now - Simple to plug and play into any EFI civic, a B20, if you're totally starting from scratch, will cost a fair bit more, especially when you consider you need ECU, tuning, gearbox, driveshafts


so B16A half-cut = 1500-2000, then 600 for a B20 block, 800 for rebuild parts (water pump, timing belt, headgasket, ARP rod bolts, OEM seals, fuel reg, oil line), then 1000 for ECU & tuning...

then another 1000 for other/extra bits (cams/IM) and you are up to the cost of a standard JDM ITR engine... but you have the power and drivability of a B20VTEC...

i know which one i'd prefer!

[e240]

Thats one way to go about it... :-)

[90LAN]

what about labour to assemble motor ?
alot of ppl on here will not be doing the work them selves

what would be the average cost for a average b20 assembly with all parts provided
for a basic build?

rebuild parts will cost a bit more than what you quoted on the basis of prices traders are sellign atm

you also forgot to mention b20 conversion kit too

[GSi_PSi]

A Basic B20 will cost you around 4 grand . Ive been in B18CRs and now they feel a bit weak, when vtec comes on its not really as much noticable compared to B20. It actually pins you back to your seat when it kicks in.

[ALLMTR996]

A Basic B20 will cost you around 4 grand . Ive been in B18CRs and now they feel a bit weak, when vtec comes on its not really as much noticable compared to B20. It actually pins you back to your seat when it kicks in.

Sam did that include labour to R&R the package or just the engine itself?

[Chr1s]

Labour depends where you go,

Some people charge 1k, some more, some less..You should speak to someone you can trust and at the end of the day, if you trust them, don't you think its worth the extra $200 to pay them? or if they're cheaper, even better!

Sam got taken care of with his build, didn't you Sam :P..

[90LAN]

A Basic B20 will cost you around 4 grand . Ive been in B18CRs and now they feel a bit weak, when vtec comes on its not really as much noticable compared to B20. It actually pins you back to your seat when it kicks in.


so 4 k all up running

so why arnt people doing more b20s to get 120kw atws

bargain performace if you ask me

[tinkerbell]

if you have a VTiR integra already, it is more like 2000 all up "running"...

this is what you'd probably need:

re-use the B18C head
B20B8 block
VTEC water pump
B18C timing belt
B20B head gasket
ARP head studs
ARP rod bolts
oil line and fittings
head work (dowels/plug/surface)
piston relief work
PCV system (fittings/hoses/can)
Coolant hoses
VRS gasket kit

but that wont make 120kW, even after you can control it (ECU) and tune it...

you will need this sort of stuff to get it really going well:

Performance header
Larger exhaust
Air filter or air intake
ITR camshafts (or larger)
ITR valve springs
ITR intake manifold
Larger throttle body
Lightened flywheel
Heavy duty clutch
Adjustable cam gears
Adjustable fuel regulator
Upgraded fuel pump
Oil cooler
ITR gearbox & LSD

[VTec1987]

A Basic B20 will cost you around 4 grand . Ive been in B18CRs and now they feel a bit weak, when vtec comes on its not really as much noticable compared to B20. It actually pins you back to your seat when it kicks in.

man for sure b20vtec will have more pull, B18CR is quick motor with basic IHE, im our certain you cant get the b18cr motor with ur current setup.

H22a motor pulls lyk i mother f****, does that mean its faster?

You would need to change the gearbox if u wana beat the b18cR, thats another 1.5-2k

[dreamshifter]

I know this thread is about B20VTEC but theres seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here.

I was wondering if doing a budget B20Z non-vtec conversion on an eg civic (fuel injected) is worthwhile - especially for the economically disadvantaged :(

Coming from a D15B7, a B20Z would give me an additional 30kw/45nm.

The engines are relatively cheap but is the conversion as simple as a B16 or B18?
Would I be able to use the gearbox and ecu from CRV to minimise cost?

[VTec1987]

I know this thread is about B20VTEC but theres seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here.

I was wondering if doing a budget B20Z non-vtec conversion on an eg civic (fuel injected) is worthwhile - especially for the economically disadvantaged :(

Coming from a D15B7, a B20Z would give me an additional 30kw/45nm.

The engines are relatively cheap but is the conversion as simple as a B16 or B18?
Would I be able to use the gearbox and ecu from CRV to minimise cost?

you would need all b series parts, u need a b16\18 gearbox

[90LAN]

if you have a VTiR integra already, it is more like 2000 all up "running"...

this is what you'd probably need:

re-use the B18C head
B20B8 block
VTEC water pump
B18C timing belt
B20B head gasket
ARP head studs
ARP rod bolts
oil line and fittings
head work (dowels/plug/surface)
piston relief work
PCV system (fittings/hoses/can)
Coolant hoses
VRS gasket kit

but that wont make 120kW, even after you can control it (ECU) and tune it...

you will need this sort of stuff to get it really going well:

Performance header
Larger exhaust
Air filter or air intake
ITR camshafts (or larger)
ITR valve springs
ITR intake manifold
Larger throttle body
Lightened flywheel
Heavy duty clutch
Adjustable cam gears
Adjustable fuel regulator
Upgraded fuel pump
Oil cooler
ITR gearbox & LSD

so really not that cheap after all
and labour cost too

but gsi psi done it with around 4k

care to share why so cheap to make 120kw?

[tinkerbell]

I know this thread is about B20VTEC but theres seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here.

I was wondering if doing a budget B20Z non-vtec conversion on an eg civic (fuel injected) is worthwhile - especially for the economically disadvantaged :(

not worthwhile IMO

Coming from a D15B7, a B20Z would give me an additional 30kw/45nm.

yes, but a B16A would also be a relatively big increase

The engines are relatively cheap but is the conversion as simple as a B16 or B18?

almost exactly the same. (they are the same family of engines)

Would I be able to use the gearbox and ecu from CRV to minimise cost?

this *might* minimise costs, but will also minimise performance

so my stance would be that if you are doing a whole engine bay conversion, may as well do it with B16A out of a EG Civic half-cut :thumbsup:

[GSi_PSi]

i actually done it with less. Like 3 grand, i already had some parts like the gearbox,clutch,flywheel. etc
My setup is the most basic with standard B16a intake manifold, B16a 60mm throttle body, i even had my stock airbox when they dynoed it and i made 121.5kw atw.
I now have my RMF headers, Fujita CAI, im going to be adding ITR intake manifold, 68mm throttle body and ITR Camshafts. Im hoping for at least 10-15kw gain with all these mods on top of my 121.5kw atw..
Zeforce Stock B20 with VTiR head only good bolt ons made 132kw.

Dreamshifter -
Hell yeah go for it man, my mate put in a standard B20 no vtec in his gsi it has pretty good increase. Just remember gearbox (no you cant use CRV its 4wd), computer is going to the ones costing the most. The B20 engine itself is around like 300 from the wreckers. I know of people in the U.S getting low 14's with ITR gearbox in their EG with a B20 no vtec.

[90LAN]

i actually done it with less. Like 3 grand, i already had some parts like the gearbox,clutch,flywheel. etc
My setup is the most basic with standard B16a intake manifold, B16a 60mm throttle body, i even had my stock airbox when they dynoed it and i made 121.5kw atw.
I now have my RMF headers, Fujita CAI, im going to be adding ITR intake manifold, 68mm throttle body and ITR Camshafts. Im hoping for at least 10-15kw gain with all these mods on top of my 121.5kw atw..
Zeforce Stock B20 with VTiR head only good bolt ons made 132kw.

Dreamshifter -
Hell yeah go for it man, my mate put in a standard B20 no vtec in his gsi it has pretty good increase. Just remember gearbox (no you cant use CRV its 4wd), computer is going to the ones costing the most. The B20 engine itself is around like 300 from the wreckers. I know of people in the U.S getting low 14's with ITR gearbox in their EG with a B20 no vtec.


yeah still i asked for a complete basic b20 cost not a rough figure then say i already had these parts
as a average person would not have these parts sitting around like you did
just clarifying what it would cost for a avg person to do and getting someone to do the labour and fitting the parts
to make it more fair so the price will be a average cost to build
not i can get this cheap or had these parts already etc

any 1/4 mile times and mph so will can get a indication of what a average b20 does ?
dyno no's are so so anyway as all read different

but torque curve will be nice to see between a b20 and a b18c making similiar no's

[tinkerbell]

any 1/4 mile times and mph so will can get a indication of what a average b20 does ?
dyno no's are so so anyway as all read different


i ran 14.3 @ 96mph with a 'standard' B20VTEC + VAFC and tuned cam gears (it read 101kW on a dyno)

then 13.7 @ 101mph with above B20VTEC + ITR cams, ITR IM, ITR TB and ITR 4-1 header (it read 109kW on a dyno)

[GSi_PSi]

man for sure b20vtec will have more pull, B18CR is quick motor with basic IHE, im our certain you cant get the b18cr motor with ur current setup.

H22a motor pulls lyk i mother f****, does that mean its faster?

You would need to change the gearbox if u wana beat the b18cR, thats another 1.5-2k

I dont want to boast but B18CR's ITR's arent that quick :), neither are S2000's, stock turbo 180sx,200sxs . H22A doesnt feel responisve at all. Ive got a prelude and it feels like a complete boat compared to my integra and its still got 200cc more. No matter even if you get a B18CR to 120kw it still wont be faster than the B20 at the same kw, because of the torque, BYP have a graph comparing this :thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

I dont want to boast but

what MPH have you run at WSID?

[GSi_PSi]

Heres the BYP dyno comparing a worked B18CR with cams vs stock B20VTEC

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/fatboyz39/IMGP0500.jpg

[VTec1987]

I dont want to boast but B18CR's ITR's arent that quick :), neither are S2000's, stock turbo 180sx,200sxs . H22A doesnt feel responisve at all. Ive got a prelude and it feels like a complete boat compared to my integra and its still got 200cc more. No matter even if you get a B18CR to 120kw it still wont be faster than the B20 at the same kw, because of the torque, BYP have a graph comparing this :thumbsup:

Don't get to excited mate, i was talking about h22a motor in general. Mate they are strong motors, what pulls them down cos of the shitty gearbox.

I was using a h22a motor as a example of a strong motor with a shitty box similiar to your powerfull b20vtec you speak about with you GSI gearbox.

You wont beat a JDM b18cr with IHE with ur CURRENT setup

[GSi_PSi]

Don't get to excited mate, i was talking about h22a motor in general. Mate they are strong motors, what pulls them down cos of the shitty gearbox.

I was using a h22a motor as a example of a strong motor with a shitty box similiar to your powerfull b20vtec you speak about with you GSI gearbox.

You wont beat a JDM b18cr with IHE with ur CURRENT setup

Ive got a VTiR box actually. I have a mate with a Integra with JDM B18CR with I/H/E :thumbsup: . You act as though youve driven my car, been in it or something. Have you ever been in a B20 before?
Im not saying my B20 is powerfull, im just saying for stock its pretty decent, when you start adding cams, better comp pistons then it becomes a powerfull b20vtec

[tinkerbell]

OK great, now can we get back to some useful discussion?

[jdmTYPE R]

b20vtec is a cheap setup if u wanna upgrade your b16a....it is a fun setup to drive on the street...

[MikeyG]

yeah still i asked for a complete basic b20 cost not a rough figure then say i already had these parts
as a average person would not have these parts sitting around like you did
just clarifying what it would cost for a avg person to do and getting someone to do the labour and fitting the parts
to make it more fair so the price will be a average cost to build
not i can get this cheap or had these parts already etc

any 1/4 mile times and mph so will can get a indication of what a average b20 does ?
dyno no's are so so anyway as all read different

but torque curve will be nice to see between a b20 and a b18c making similiar no's

ok well lan lets say a person who wants a b20vtec with nothing..now when i add figures im not 100% on what they cost so i will round it to the next hundred.

b20 - 200-300
b20vtec kit - 150-300
b16a/b18c/b18c7 head WITH box - 1.5k - 3k
big tube headers - 500 - 1k
catback to exhaust - 500 - 1k
ecu (crome, hondata) 300 - 1k
labour + fitting parts ( now this depends on what shops you go to BUT if your in sydney then ben can do it for a price just pm ) 1k - 3k
tune ( also where you go depends ) 500 - 1k
breather kit - 150 - 300

now this is what i can think of.. some one will add more IF its needed for a BASIC setup. this should give you an idea

now the prices i will say again i dont know 100% of them so i rounded them off to the next hundred..

also times depends.. some are low 13s some are high 13s just depends on driver

[90LAN]

I dont want to boast but B18CR's ITR's arent that quick :), neither are S2000's, stock turbo 180sx,200sxs . H22A doesnt feel responisve at all. Ive got a prelude and it feels like a complete boat compared to my integra and its still got 200cc more. No matter even if you get a B18CR to 120kw it still wont be faster than the B20 at the same kw, because of the torque, BYP have a graph comparing this :thumbsup:


so you actually have any real times or just street racing examples ?

you cant compare byp b20 to yours they are in another league to you

where talking about your 3k b20 set up compare to a slow jdm b18cr motor

just wanted to see what you basic b20 did ?

thats all simple q's not how slow one car with a certain engine is to yours on the street

all different types of tuning so you just cant compare it to the slow b18cr motor you have been it

any way still waiting for real times on your set up which you claim to be decent and dont want to boast about ....

thanks tinkerbell for the comparision times

my slow 96 spec b18cr with i/h/e did 14.1 at 98 mph also have hit 99mph
full street trim ac/ps interior etc
with 2.4 60 footers

[ALLMTR996]

Where is Fatboyz and Benson they ran some good times a few years ago with basic B20 builds.

[90LAN]

ok well lan lets say a person who wants a b20vtec with nothing..now when i add figures im not 100% on what they cost so i will round it to the next hundred.

b20 - 200-300
b20vtec kit - 150-300
b16a/b18c/b18c7 head WITH box - 1.5k - 3k
big tube headers - 500 - 1k
catback to exhaust - 500 - 1k
ecu (crome, hondata) 300 - 1k
labour + fitting parts ( now this depends on what shops you go to BUT if your in sydney then ben can do it for a price just pm ) 1k - 3k
tune ( also where you go depends ) 500 - 1k
breather kit - 150 - 300


now this is what i can think of.. some one will add more IF its needed for a BASIC setup. this should give you an idea

now the prices i will say again i dont know 100% of them so i rounded them off to the next hundred..

also times depends.. some are low 13s some are high 13s just depends on driver


still not cheap as some people make it out to be
you always have to spend money no matter what engine you have to go fast
if it could be done 4 k drive in drive out to do 13's
i would do it today in one of my cars

and a 1 sec difference is not driver its more to do with the set up you have

dont sugar coat it guys we only want honest answers

[bennjamin]

No one has stated what a typical B20 + vtec + running gear + tuneable ecu + ecu is costing....anyone care to work it out roughly ?

[CB7_OWNER]

Aight,, I'll use myself as an example..

i Drive a EM1. (b16).. how much am i looking at to get a b20 conversion done. Drive in drive out price. Any recommendations for Sydney people for where to go?

How much power can i expect from the most basic b20.

How much power can i expect from a b20 with ITR internals.

As i read above, some people claim to make 120kw odd on a basic b20.. someone else claimed to make 110kw odd with ITR internals..

Now why is there a huge difference in power figures?

1/4 mile times dont really mean much, when its different setup , different driver? different car?

Thank You.

[ALLMTR996]

Aight,, I'll use myself as an example..

i Drive a EM1. (b16).. how much am i looking at to get a b20 conversion done. Drive in drive out price. Any recommendations for Sydney people for where to go?

How much power can i expect from the most basic b20.

How much power can i expect from a b20 with ITR internals.

As i read above, some people claim to make 120kw odd on a basic b20.. someone else claimed to make 110kw odd with ITR internals..

Now why is there a huge difference in power figures?

1/4 mile times dont really mean much, when its different setup , different driver? different car?

Thank You.

Just to work out a real no bullshit quote what mods are done to your EM1 ?

[MikeyG]

ben i did at my post

and yes lan it may NOT be as cheap as expected BUT it will go better then your tradional b18c7 conversion

[90LAN]

ben i did at my post

and yes lan it may NOT be as cheap as expected BUT it will go better then your tradional b18c7 conversion


well a b20 is not a conversion its technically a engine build in my books

so of course its going to be better

at no stage did i say the b20 was anything less

just trying to get a straight response to what a decent b20 will cost and what times/power it will i get

and to see if its worth while doing for the cost compared to other motors like the k20/k24/h2b etc

because when i look at that parts list and cost and labour it starts to really add up

but if its doable for under 5 k like people have said
it will be a really good option for alot of people

dont get me wrong i spoke to a b20 eng builder when i had my b16 never got around to it
thats why im asking these q's

[dougie_504]

well a b20 is not a conversion its technically a engine build in my books

so of course its going to be better

at no stage did i say the b20 was anything less

just trying to get a straight response to what a decent b20 will cost and what times/power it will i get

and to see if its worth while doing for the cost compared to other motors like the k20/k24/h2b etc

because when i look at that parts list and cost and labour it starts to really add up

but if its doable for under 5 k like people have said
it will be a really good option for alot of people

dont get me wrong i spoke to a b20 eng builder when i had my b16 never got around to it
thats why im asking these q's

From the guys I've spoken to who have done B20 builds I think just a slap-on build (IE B16 stuck onto a B20 bottom with I/H/E) will make around 115-120kw ATW, whereas a fairly built one with a mod'd head/bottom will make around 150-160kw ATW.

But the torque is what makes it such a killer.

Maybe ask Benson (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=2143) who I've been talking to a bit recently. He's running a H2B but has built a couple of B20VTECs for the track and seems to know a bit about them.


Hope this helps.

[Benson]

To help put things in perspective and help let people know the potential of a stockish b20vtec we did a b20vtec to our ITR over 2years ago when we spun a bottom end.

We needed a cheap replacement, so we had a slapper B20vtec bottom end lying around (decked). Nothing special really, just a real quick slapper with all spare parts used.

So the motor just basically replace the 1.8l ITR bottom end with the 2.0l B20 bottom end. Nothing else was changed, same bolt-ons was retain (DD custom 4-2-1 headers, Intake, ECU + tune). Motor ran 13.6@103mph with the ITR motor (124kw ATW). With the B20vtec, it ran 13.4@104mph (121kw ATW). Driver was the same!. Daily driving with the b20vtec is more noticable as well, didnt need as much throttle to get it around town

Even though it made less power and compression, the torque advantage over the ITR bottom end is comparable.

As for budget Lan, ASSUMING you have all the bolt-ons from the B18c, a GOOD V1 b20 bottom end can be had for around 2kish. Add labour to assemble it and get it in the car. Your looking at around 3kish to be safe, to get it all running. Some people can do it heaps cheaper if they do their own labour

[90LAN]

To help put things in perspective and help let people know the potential of a stockish b20vtec we did a b20vtec to our ITR over 2years ago when we spun a bottom end.

We needed a cheap replacement, so we had a slapper B20vtec bottom end lying around (decked). Nothing special really, just a real quick slapper with all spare parts used.

So the motor just basically replace the 1.8l ITR bottom end with the 2.0l B20 bottom end. Nothing else was changed, same bolt-ons was retain (DD custom 4-2-1 headers, Intake, ECU + tune). Motor ran 13.6@103mph with the ITR motor (124kw ATW). With the B20vtec, it ran 13.4@104mph (121kw ATW). Driver was the same!. Daily driving with the b20vtec is more noticable as well, didnt need as much throttle to get it around town

Even though it made less power and compression, the torque advantage over the ITR bottom end is comparable.

As for budget Lan, ASSUMING you have all the bolt-ons from the B18c, a GOOD V1 b20 bottom end can be had for around 2kish. Add labour to assemble it and get it in the car. Your looking at around 3kish to be safe, to get it all running. Some people can do it heaps cheaper if they do their own labour


thanks for the good informative reply

what about a basic build with no existing b series in your car

add another 4k - 5k ?

[ALLMTR996]

V1 B20 bottomend same as Phamburgers 133kw engine & MikeyG just under 120kw engine,this is if you already have a B/Vtec powered car and removed the engine yourself and supplied your current engine to this engine builder,he fits everything including the oil/water heat exchanger from your current setup,so please REMEMBER THIS IS THE LOWEST SPEC Version offered from him,and being a B20B8 engine they share the same oil pump as ITR/VtiR B18c and later B16a engines.

You Get

B20B8 bottomend
Completely stripped,chem cleaned,honed,decked block
CNC Notched STD B20 pistons (pic's will be posted later tonight)
New Hastings Piston Rings
Rods fitted with ARP Rod Bolts,Closed & Honed
ACL Race Bearings
OEM Bottomend Gasket Set
OEM B18C Timing Belt
OEM B18c Harmonic Balancer (if your current one is not suitable)
OEM B18c/B16a Water Pump
Golden Eagle Vtec Conversion kit with 0.030" head gasket
ARP Head Studs
Your oil pump stripped and modified and reshimed for higher oil pressure

It will cost $3500/4000 fully assembled depending on the dollar at time of engine build.

This package has run mid to low 13's in DC2R's/EG's and early CRX using ITR head/cams/intake manifolds fitted with a good set of headers and exhaust,this package will run fine on a STD ECU untill the owner can get it tuned.

[CB7_OWNER]

Just to work out a real no bullshit quote what mods are done to your EM1 ?

My EM1 has CAI and a muffler. thats its. cause i would like a engine swap/rebuild in the future.. so i havent touched exhaust yet, as im not sure if it can be reused on a b20.

Thanks

[ALLMTR996]

For CB7_OWNER

With a setup for you there would be a few changes to the above setup I posted up.

B20B8 bottomend
Completely stripped,chem cleaned,honed,decked block
CNC Notched STD B20 pistons (pic's will be posted later tonight)
New Hastings Piston Rings
Rods fitted with ARP Rod Bolts,Closed & Honed
ACL Race Bearings
OEM Bottomend Gasket Set
OEM B18C Timing Belt
OEM Harmonic Balancer (your current one would be used)
OEM B18c/B16a Water Pump (your current one would be used)
Golden Eagle Vtec Conversion kit with 0.030" head gasket
ARP Head Studs

Your oil pump stripped and modified and reshimed for higher oil pressure your water pipe thermostat housing oil/water heat exchanger and all other bolt-ons would be used to keep costs down as much as possible this engine
using STD B16a header and exhaust,intake manifold TB will make 113-118kw your current ECU will run this fine till more mods are done again to keep the cost down with tuning and ECU upgrades.

It will cost $3000 fully assembled depending on the dollar at time of engine build if you want the head serviced while its off add another $800.



I will add more and change this over the next few days just waiting on some other prices about a drive in drive out deal.

[Benson]

thanks for the good informative reply

what about a basic build with no existing b series in your car

add another 4k - 5k ?

The smart thing to do is buy a B16a or B18c running gear and do a 2.0L bottom end to it.

B-series running gear are cheap these days, roughly 2-3k. Add another 3k for a B20vtec conversion (V1 bottom end). Then all you need to worry about is the bolt-ons. As allmotor996 stated, you can run a standard ecu for the time being, run standard headers, intake and exhaust. Thats to keep cost down, but if you do have the budget, I/H/E + ECU and tune is HIGHLY recommended

[ALLMTR996]

Benny BYP ran 3 cars I think with V1-V2 style engines what times did they run with what bolt-ons the main one I remember was the black CRX.

[MikeyG]

benson i miss my b20vtec.. make me another one :D

[ek4-guy]

benson i miss my b20vtec.. make me another one :D

how long will the next one last before it gets impounded :(

[MikeyG]

haha yea true darryl.. prob both get impounded but i will stay in for longer :(

[ek4-guy]

don't mikey i'm gona have similar problems soon enough

[MikeyG]

hqhhaah your going to have a bigger problem then me darryl... please send me vid asap of it cranking plus street runs :D

[gambate]

what is V1/V2 bottom ends? different design/casing?

[Chr1s]

It's BYP well DynoDave's engine really.

He does two different types of builds, I'm not going to disclose the specs of each as I'm not entirely sure, but BYP/he can say what they have.

Ben, I will come back with a rough quote/list on Monday.

[ALLMTR996]

The DD/BYP V1-V2 B20 engines are the STD piston builds there are a few other versions that are done but not relevent to this thread at the moment.

[GSi_PSi]

so you actually have any real times or just street racing examples ?

you cant compare byp b20 to yours they are in another league to you

where talking about your 3k b20 set up compare to a slow jdm b18cr motor

just wanted to see what you basic b20 did ?

thats all simple q's not how slow one car with a certain engine is to yours on the street

all different types of tuning so you just cant compare it to the slow b18cr motor you have been it

any way still waiting for real times on your set up which you claim to be decent and dont want to boast about ....

thanks tinkerbell for the comparision times

my slow 96 spec b18cr with i/h/e did 14.1 at 98 mph also have hit 99mph
full street trim ac/ps interior etc
with 2.4 60 footers

Dude the engine BYP built is like exactly the same as mine. They got the same KW reading to the last point aswell. 121.5kw. Where did i compare my engine to BYP 160kw B20? :thumbdwn:.. When i get my licence back, gets things running perfectly ill be taking my car down the 1/4 ill update it with times for you

[beeza]

lololol

When I get my licence bacK!

I'm gonna lose it again!!

LOL

[GSi_PSi]

ive got two weeks left :) .. gonna take it the 1/4... hopefully get into something turbo afterwards

[beeza]

I was a whisker away from losing mine.

I now know I don't EVER want to lose it.

Must....drive.....the......speed.......limit.

[Chr1s]

No one has stated what a typical B20 + vtec + running gear + tuneable ecu + ecu is costing....anyone care to work it out roughly ?

Ok, real rough here and don't quote figures as it depends on the individual scenario, currency rate, etc.

This is what I would recommend, given the AGE of B series motors now, people need to realise that while the engine is out, it is worth the extra dollars to have it rebuilt. This will avoid possible problems down the track which may cost you more. I don't see the point in purchasing a motor more than 10 years old now and expecting it to have the performance it should. I'm sure some can agree.

Scenario #1 - Currently equiped with a B16/18 VTEC with standard head internals

- B20 block
- Labour to assemble
- VTEC conversion
- RS Pistons w/ rings
- ACL race bearings
- ARP rod bolts
- Gasket kit
- Headers
- Intake work
- ECU
- Tune
- Machining work inc. servicing of head (seals, seats etc)
- Fluids
- etc

The above can probably be done PROPERLY for a budget of around 4-5k.

Keep in mind, even though thats standard cams, this will net you power around 125kw+ with potential to hit 150+ with the right headwork. Perfect ring seal and performance of a new motor.

I think the above build is the best for most people on here to get them going as they can't afford to get everything in one go, it's not needed to get the cams, springs, etc all in the one go anyway.

The price might scare a fair few people on here away but keep in mind, each builder will quote a different price, but be sure you speak with that person in depth as each builder will do something the other won't. I know for fact I don't disclose what I do to my builds online. I just can't get my head around why people are willing to pay 5-6k for a second hand Type R motor when this will provide much better gains.

Scenario #2 - No VTEC engine

Well same engine setup as above, just the consumer needs to source a B16 halfcut or whatever is cheaper, pointless trying to get a budget for this as these prices fluctuate everyday and it depends where you get it from.

I personally would invest slightly more money and get a fun setup going that would be similiar to a K20. (edit: K20 and their F'n gearboxes of god :unlove:)

[ek4-guy]

- B20 block
- Labour to assemble
- VTEC conversion
- RS Pistons w/ rings
- ACL race bearings
- ARP rod bolts
- Gasket kit
- Headers
- Intake work
- ECU
- Tune
- Machining work inc. servicing of head (seals, seats etc)
- Fluids
- etc

The above can probably be done PROPERLY for a budget of around 3-4k.


can you break this down to individual prices

i've been planning some work on my b18c7 and compared to items i've purchsed and quotes i've had on work this seems very cheap

my bottom and upper VRS kits cost 500+ alone

[tinkerbell]

that list hits ~4000 before any labour/block work/head work is factored in...

[Chr1s]

I can't break it down individually as it depends on the time of item arrival. I am not a retail shop that can just list a product at x amount, until I have a certain amount of stock to classify my products into fixed prices, it's impossible.

If you want a quote, PM me and we'll take it from there.

Guys & admins, this thread is turning into abit of a quote/marketing saga, I must state my intentions with this thread being technical and theories for some future builds, if you guys want prices or are interested in builds, drop some of the guys in this thread a PM.

My bad, it was meant to be 4-5k!

[tinkerbell]

I must state my intentions with this thread being technical and theories for some future builds,

what style header is best for a std compression (10:1) B20VTEC with ITR cams?


My bad, it was meant to be 4-5k!

and for the headstuds? you re-use the VTEC ones?

[Chr1s]

what style header is best for a std compression (10:1) B20VTEC with ITR cams?

and for the headstuds? you re-use the VTEC ones?

- I would opt for a 4-2-1 larger tube item, this leaves headroom for more work down the track, I am working on a new design to suit B20VTEC engines. Mathematically calculated using various formulae in accordance to fluid/thermal dynamic principles. Utilising a reverse megaphone also.

- If I must, I re-use headstuds, havn't had an issue yet, if the budget allows, I would use ARP items. For the record I would personally use ARP items.

[Benson]

I would use the small tube 4-2-1 TRI- Y over the big tubes for a standardish motor build

[CB7_OWNER]

Some one asked previously.. dont think it was clearly answered.. whats a V1 build and a V2 build?

[tinkerbell]

it is proprietary jargon... it is not common parlance to refer to B20's as V1 or V2...

[Fly-Rice]

whats the difference between a 125kw B20 and a 150+kw B20.

Besides money spent, what is the difference in parts combination?

[Benson]

whats the difference between a 125kw B20 and a 150+kw B20.

Besides money spent, what is the difference in parts combination?

Depends on who puts it together, head combo, clearances, bolt-ons etc etc

[TODA AU]

whats the difference between a 125kw B20 and a 150+kw B20.

Besides money spent, what is the difference in parts combination?
What an interesting read this thread is…
Some good info & some tall stories. (with no doubt more to come)

The 120kw B20 Vtec is a real thing… No question…
A 130~135kw unit isn’t rocket science either.
But the ones pushing 150+kw & the few that get past 160kw… LOL…

Yeah… If you did your research online, it would seem almost anyone can build a 150+kw B-series these days...
Any & every parts re-seller is able to recommend the correct combination of parts…
The fact that they have never done it or know nothing about building & tuning an engine will escape most customers. (Not good to think like that)
Now days, any machinist will do too… Nothing special required here either…
Head porting is also apparently now a breeze too…
Seems just anyone & everyone can do this at the required level now too.
**cough** Bullshit!
Now, where are all these easy build 150+kw N/A B-Series engines?
The answer is no-where…

Reality is that there are not many people in this country who can actually lay claim to be able to build one of these things…
Not just build a one shot wonder, but build one that lasts & will do a season or even 2…
More to the point, there are few who have actually done it…
Saying you can & actually doing it are two entirely different things…
Including myself, I can think of 3 people off hand…
One talks about himself in the 3rd person.
Hard to pick if you didn’t know, but I know…
The other wouldn’t ever bother coming on here. (& I’m starting to understand why… LOL)
Anyone else on here, to be frank just doesn’t have the runs on the board to lay claim to such an output (N/A) from that engine type.

The funny thing is, nothing has really changed in the last 10 years to make the task any easier.
The requirements remain the same…
Parts used need to be good if not excellent & the combination is critical.
The machining needs to be the best money can buy.
You really should spare no expense here as any cost cutting here will hurt you badly. This is a fact.
The assembly must also be spot on, with everything sorted on the engine stand.
The tuning must also be spot on…
That’s easy too cause apparently everyone’s a tuner now too…

Combination is everything… & it’s not just the parts…
It’s parts, machining, assembly & tuning… the whole package.
Any deficits show up as low output.
A funny thing happens when everything leading up to the tuning is spot on…
No matter what… You pull the string the damn thing just spanks out power…
The more you lean on it, the better it gets & it loves it.
That same can’t be said for any of these low budget pipe dreams out there.
In cases that are half-arsed, you spend all day sorting out stupid problems before the thing is even ready for a tune… Nothing goes right & to battle for every horsepower.
Get it right & the thing is awesome…
(There are quite a few combo's that work - but there are more that don't)
Get it wrong & the net result… WOFTAM

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116255

[bennjamin]

great info above there - dare i say from the only legit professional builder.


To TODA AU and all others - due to increased obvious torque - is the need for a higher final drive or shorter gear ratios etc NEEDED ? Im sure a standard gsi or vtir or ek4 (for example) gearbox suit it fine right ?

[Chr1s]

Thanks for stating the obvious Adrian

I would go up on final drive, to hit the numbers you want, i'd hunt a 4.9FD. Regardless of torque you make, the higher the figures you produce and the higher FD you go, just add more wheelspin.

edit: I always find it funny how Adrian says his essay like posts, they are nice and short in blocks LOL, not having a dig at you but it cracks me up :).

[GSi_PSi]

talk about plugs and advertising lol...

to be honest if i install hi-comp pistons,forged rods, hi-lift cams, port cnc my head, vavle train etc, and if i dont get close to 150kw ill chuck my motor in the bin.. when people say its so hard to get this kw , its only because the parts arent used. Its probly a stock build with cams you need everything to make it hit 150kw. That includes the required bolt ons, ie ITB's , injectors, large enough throttle and extractors

[MrKaji]

I dont want to boast but B18CR's ITR's arent that quick :), neither are S2000's, stock turbo 180sx,200sxs . H22A doesnt feel responisve at all. Ive got a prelude and it feels like a complete boat compared to my integra and its still got 200cc more. No matter even if you get a B18CR to 120kw it still wont be faster than the B20 at the same kw, because of the torque, BYP have a graph comparing this :thumbsup:

take it easy dude, dont get ahead of yourself on that statement

[GSi_PSi]

lol okay ozhonda, B18C is too fast, dont waste your money and time with b20's.....

[VTec1987]

man, no1 is saying b20vtec is slow

but don't get to excited mate, the way you TALK up b20vtec is lyk a GTR engine

[GSi_PSi]

nahhhh bro im excited B18C will eat the GTR engine,

[RandyRhydah]

nahhhh bro im excited B18C will eat the GTR engine,

here here :P

[TODA AU]

To TODA AU and all others - due to increased obvious torque - is the need for a higher final drive or shorter gear ratios etc NEEDED ? Im sure a standard gsi or vtir or ek4 (for example) gearbox suit it fine right ?

Depends on what you're doing with the car...
For a roadie / daily driver, yes the VtiR or EK4 box is just fine...
For the odd track day & a bit of fun.
Just use a B18CR gearbox & be done with it.
But if you're racing & want to win,
As with any track car. you'll need to look a gear ratio's & final drive.
Also going shorter in the final drive isn't always the answer.
On circuit cars, we often go the other way... 4.0, 4.2 or 4.4 final drive combined with close ratio gear kit.


talk about plugs and advertising lol...

to be honest if i install hi-comp pistons,forged rods, hi-lift cams, port cnc my head, vavle train etc, and if i dont get close to 150kw ill chuck my motor in the bin.. when people say its so hard to get this kw , its only because the parts arent used. Its probly a stock build with cams you need everything to make it hit 150kw. That includes the required bolt ons, ie ITB's , injectors, large enough throttle and extractors


You don’t actually need quads to get there…
Done right, they can be a big help. But done wrong they can be the opposite.
It’s all about combination. & it’s a holistic combination, not just parts.
& in the respect, real experience here is pay-dirt

[Chr1s]

General law of physics dictates that an increase in displacement will net more torque and power, so yes a B20vtec is "quicker" than a B18, i'll leave it at that.

I'd like to see some input regarding intake system, particularly the way the air is fed to the intake, ie - feed, filter/airbox, intake arm.

What is your experiance with different designs?

[na-118]

so if they left the crank bolt out? its the tuner that makes up for it?
i found it quite heartening to hear recently that my first B20VTEC i built back ages ago is still running! not sure where, but it is apparently still strong...

i revved that pretty hard and the key i think to its longevity is perhaps how it is still basically OEM honda inside... (ran 13.7 @101mph at WSID)

i think the more important aspect is not who BUILT - it but who TUNED it...

IMO - poor tuning breaks B20's, not high RPM/side-load/RS ratio etc...

both guys who handled my tuning knew what to do, so make sure if you do a B20VTEC - get it tuned by a experienced tuner...



BTW - instead of re-inventing the wheel, guys have a read of this thread before asking simple questions:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1676914

[tinkerbell]

so if they left the crank bolt out? its the tuner that makes up for it?

if they left the crank bolt out, it might not even make it to the tuner? :confused:

[na-118]

finger tight will make it

[tinkerbell]

finger tight will make it

wow, i am learning lots from this thread!

[Chr1s]

I'd appreciate if you two keep that to PM.

Mods, please delete.

[tinkerbell]

sorry to have sullied your thread with such juvenile behaviour :(

[na-118]

getting upset are you?

[kraiye]

oh god, another OH thread about to be ruined!



in the interest of the topic...

what's the max rpm a stock b20 is good for and what would be needed to take it to around 8,500?

is b20b8 or b20z better in terms of both performance and compatibility?

also, on a built and camed (sk2 pro1) b16a2, would be worthwhile replacing the b16 bottom and ctr pistons with a stock b20 bottom (maybe with high comp pistons)? or is that just asking for dramas by using a built head on a stock bottom? and i assume i can't reuse b16ctr pistons in a b20??

[kraiye]

why do people keep mentioning $300 B20 blocks and $1-2k b16 half cuts?

if you know why i can get either of these at those prices PPLLEEAASSEE let me know!

[Benson]

oh god, another OH thread about to be ruined!



in the interest of the topic...

what's the max rpm a stock b20 is good for and what would be needed to take it to around 8,500?

is b20b8 or b20z better in terms of both performance and compatibility?

also, on a built and camed (sk2 pro1) b16a2, would be worthwhile replacing the b16 bottom and ctr pistons with a stock b20 bottom (maybe with high comp pistons)? or is that just asking for dramas by using a built head on a stock bottom? and i assume i can't reuse b16ctr pistons in a b20??

We have taken stock B20 rods to 8800rpm's. We capped the rev limit to 8600rpms though. I would run a set of H or I beams forged Rod for piece of mind.

Just use a b20b8...

And yes, it would be worthwhile to change your b16a bottom end to 2.0l. A stock B20 bottom end spec will run fine with your headwork. Check out phamburgers b20vtec. Thats running a V1 spec bottom end with headwork. Its making over 130kw with less than 10:1 compression

CTR psiton wont fit the b20, different bore size (81 compared to 84mm)

[tinkerbell]

correct me if i am wrong, but B20B8 specs = B20Z specs

[kraiye]

correct me if i am wrong, but B20B8 specs = B20Z specs

i remember reading something somewhere about the fuel or water pump being different??? just checking if any other differences

[tinkerbell]

nah.

fuel pump is in the fuel tank (i.e. nothing to do with engine) and water pump is the same 19 tooth item.

maybe you are thinking of B20B3 vs B20B8?

[tinkerbell]

first hit on Google: http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=460954

[Ear_]

Hi got a mate who has a b16 or 18cr head and a b20 bot also thats done up. i/h/e/cams/pistons/ecu/etcc....

he has an apexi power fc and he wants to know if or any suggestions if he should change ecu then tune it or tune it with the power fc. if tunning it he wants to know if anyone who has tuned power fc's before can do it for him and whats so good about power fc's ecu. is it good with b20?

[kraiye]

first hit on Google: http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=460954

lol i'm always tellin ppl to google stuff... now i'm beeing a douche!
ta

[ALLMTR996]

correct me if i am wrong, but B20B8 specs = B20Z specs

Yes that is correct B20Z is a US engine.

[GSi_PSi]

Kraiye - If you were in Sydney, i would gladly help you find a cheap b20b8. I don't know how much its in Brisbane, but its best to go to a wrecker not some dreamer that offers them for 1grand. A B16a isn't worth more than about 2 grand with the box.

[tinkerbell]

Hi got a mate who has a b16 or 18cr head and a b20 bot also thats done up. i/h/e/cams/pistons/ecu/etcc....

he has an apexi power fc and he wants to know if or any suggestions if he should change ecu then tune it or tune it with the power fc. if tunning it he wants to know if anyone who has tuned power fc's before can do it for him and whats so good about power fc's ecu. is it good with b20?

i used one on my last B20, it was fine.

but your tuner must have the right program on their laptop... i *think* it is called fc-datalogit or something?

just using the hand controller is not an easy or effective way...

[na-118]

i wish the ones selling these motors on the forums think the same as you
Kraiye - If you were in Sydney, i would gladly help you find a cheap b20b8. I don't know how much its in Brisbane, but its best to go to a wrecker not some dreamer that offers them for 1grand. A B16a isn't worth more than about 2 grand with the box.

[kraiye]

Kraiye - If you were in Sydney, i would gladly help you find a cheap b20b8. I don't know how much its in Brisbane, but its best to go to a wrecker not some dreamer that offers them for 1grand. A B16a isn't worth more than about 2 grand with the box.

thanks mate appreciate it :thumbsup:
problem is, most of the wreckers up here ARE dreamers :(
i was waiting on a price to get a short block shipped from japan (kind of 'on the side') but the guy never got back to me.

[bennjamin]

prices which YOU think an item is worth...is NOT what it IS actually worth. Wreckers sell for whatever they CAN sell to someone lol.

[kraiye]

other way round mate... prices which THEY think an item is worth...is NOT what it IS actually worth.

thats what i've been finding with the jap wreckers up here anyway.

[bennjamin]

i guess my point is the worth is what it sells for , or what it can sell for. Just because youor me think its worth say $2k - isnt stopping the wrecker advertising it for $3.5k and selling it for that eventually to a noob.

[ek4-guy]

oh but this forum works both ways depending on if the person is buying or selling

[ek4-guy]

someone find me a $300 b20 suitable for a spare b16a2 that i have

[kraiye]

dam noobs... raising the prices for the rest of us!!

[tinkerbell]

someone find me a $300 b20 suitable for a spare b16a2 that i have

sure, but my 'finders fee' = $350

[Chr1s]

^ LOL nice one.

[Ear_]

Thanks for that tinkerbell.

got any suggestions of where to go in syndey for tunning?

[tinkerbell]

Toda Racing has the proper software on their laptop :)

[ek4-guy]

sure, but my 'finders fee' = $350

yep nice one but pretty much confirms my thoughts

[tinkerbell]

yep nice one but pretty much confirms my thoughts

yeah, you *might* get one for 500, but it would probably not be the best...

around 600 is a common price...

[ALLMTR996]

PM slaz he had a few forsale for $500 I think.

[TODA AU]

PM slaz he had a few forsale for $500 I think.

He's got one of his left but I'm not sure if he's keeping it or not,
As above, give hime a PM :thumbsup:

[GSi_PSi]

i got one from a toyota wrecker for 350 complete with head+block, its always good to just ask random wreckers never know what you can find. Originally i was actually looking for a just a normal B18B2 GSi engine and i found the B20 being cheaper than it, so i opted for the B20B8

[dougie_504]

I think $500 is a bit steep, if you look around you can get one for $400 or less

[tinkerbell]

I think $500 is a bit steep, if you look around you can get one for $400 or less

where exactly in melbourne can you get a B20B for $400 or less, or did you mean in other parts australia as well?

[dougie_504]

All you need to do is find somebody who can get you a trade price, or go looking around at different wreckers to see what you can get - you'd be surprised.

My mate gets B20 blocks (without being cleaned/rebuilt/checked etc.) for around $300-400.

[mocchi]

wreckers here sell long block for 800-1200.
hondwreck, japwreck, imlachs etc.

can you tell us where in melbourne 300-400 dougie? can you get your mate to get us at that price?

no use saying your mate get it at this price or that price, if other people cant get it at that price.

[tinkerbell]

regardless of the price of the block, it is only a small portion of the money you need to spend...

so regardless of whether you are 'in teh trade' or have to pay *retail* - you still got much bigger things to worry about than the price you pay for the block...

[kraiye]

true but u can't do much a b20 build without it. lol
and the money u save on the block will of course go into other parts.
wreckers i've asked in bris are similar to melb prices. at these prices a b20 vtec is out of the question but for $300-400 i can not only afford it but do it better.

[ALLMTR996]

So who is currently building or looking at building a B20Vtec and what combo are you using.

[Chr1s]

^ I brought up idiscussion for intake airbox ideas but its gone out the window.

[ALLMTR996]

^ I brought up idiscussion for intake airbox ideas but its gone out the window.

To technical dude :(

[MikeyG]

From what I've heard 3inch velocity stacks works well. I think the intakes like injen or cai would lose power right since it's for top end power but b20 is meant for torque so it's mid range but that's my 2cents

[Chr1s]

Care to explain your theory behind such statement Mikey?

I'm seriously interested to hear this one, you say it like you experianced it

[MikeyG]

Sorry what I meant to say is that I believe a Sri would work better for a b20 and builders from h-t told me it's better so I'm just taking their word

[ALLMTR996]

Sorry what I meant to say is that I believe a Sri would work better for a b20 and builders from h-t told me it's better so I'm just taking their word

:honda:

[tinkerbell]

Sorry what I meant to say is that I believe a Sri would work better for a b20 and builders from h-t told me it's better so I'm just taking their word

did they tell you you would have to tune the length/diameter on a dyno too?

i will be doing this on my next B20...

[GSi_PSi]

If your using your motor you going to be in the up in the rev range anyway and thats were CAI's shines, above 5k+.

[bennjamin]

From what I've heard 3inch velocity stacks works well. I think the intakes like injen or cai would lose power right since it's for top end power but b20 is meant for torque so it's mid range but that's my 2cents



Benson or jimmy told you this , which they were told by dyno dave eh ? Lol.

Still , it's all food for thought.

[ALLMTR996]

Benson or jimmy told you this , which they were told by dyno dave eh ? Lol.

Still , it's all food for thought.

All I know is there is 300+ dyno runs done on Insight Motorsports dyno testing intakes on B20/B18/B16a setups some of which the boys where involved the rest no one but Dave and Scott know about.

[Benson]

Honda got it right with the stock airbox and rubber intake arm :confused:

Anyways, lets hear more theories

[Benson]

did they tell you you would have to tune the length/diameter on a dyno too?

i will be doing this on my next B20...

All set-ups tuned on the dyno we have had different size piping and length to tune each motor. Some length's you cant fit in the engine bay, so there is give and take when its comes to the length

The blox filter combo has been one of the best filter tested against the big branded fliters

[MikeyG]

Benson or jimmy told you this , which they were told by dyno dave eh ? Lol.

Still , it's all food for thought.

Jimmy told me that SRI would work better then CAI... BUT i was told me other b20 builders from the states aswell so ye...

[bennjamin]

Let's get some dyno sheets to back this up !



Although , would it be a general concensus that any particular type of intake will benefit a similar engine to a built b20 ? (ofcourse tuned)

[GSi_PSi]

you can compare the SRI to the CAI unless you are driving both on the road. When dynoing the bonnet will be up letting the hot engine bay air out and obviously the CAI will be restricted as it sits near the ground. The dyno's fans cant be compared to road air either.

[ZeForce]

Honda got it right with the stock airbox and rubber intake arm :confused:

Anyways, lets hear more theories

Im using stock airbox and piping atm and I think it works great, just as good if not better than my SRI I had previously....

[02gzm]

where exactly in melbourne can you get a B20B for $400 or less, or did you mean in other parts australia as well?

Heading back to costs for a sec.

Was quoted $320 for the complete bottom end from my local parts guys in Brisbane about an hour ago while picking up some other bits and pieces ;)

Also what would the average engineering/mod plating costs be for a displacement increase?
If anyone has an estimate that'd be great.

[riruiz_88]

so which oil pick up would be used? and are you able to use B16/B18 aftermarket/OEM oil sump?

[fatboyz39]

so which oil pick up would be used? and are you able to use B16/B18 aftermarket/OEM oil sump?

Standard OEM b20 oil pickup with B20 sump. B20 and B16a share the same sump.

You can also run B18c/type R sump.

[riruiz_88]

very nice. thanks for quick answer.

[dougie_504]

Heading back to costs for a sec.

Was quoted $320 for the complete bottom end from my local parts guys in Brisbane about an hour ago while picking up some other bits and pieces ;)

Also what would the average engineering/mod plating costs be for a displacement increase?
If anyone has an estimate that'd be great.


My point exactly bro.

If you pay more than $500 then you've been jibbed. And if you've paid $800-1000 then sure, it's not like that's where the most of the build money is going to go, but that wasted $300-500 could get you a new CAI or a dyno tune.

In VIC it's around $600-1000 for an engineering cert (my mate is doing one right now for his B18CR in ED9) but this depends on whether or not you need to do extra work to satisfy their sadistic need for perfection/registration at VicRoads...

[Slaz]

Interesting thread to say the least, but as for b20 second hand prices, if the engine is to be stripped and fully rebuilt, then the condition of the engine you would be starting with wouldnt be of much concern, as for engines with low km's that may just have the pistons notched or go back into a crv for a replacment, thats where a engine would and should be a higher price.

But as has been said, how many 150+ dyno's are on here, not many, and how many people ( i know a fair few now ) have attempted to strap one together with what they would consider a decent parts list and fallen well short, as for 160+ i believe my engine is the only B series on here with a dyno sheet to back it up, not to say they might not be out there, but they are very few and far between.

[dougie_504]

N/A B-Series, you mean?

[Benson]

But as has been said, how many 150+ dyno's are on here, not many, and how many people ( i know a fair few now ) have attempted to strap one together with what they would consider a decent parts list and fallen well short, as for 160+ i believe my engine is the only B series on here with a dyno sheet to back it up, not to say they might not be out there, but they are very few and far between.

Dyno numbers are one thing and running the times is another. Anyone can make xxx amount on the dyno. There is too many variables when it comes to dyno number. Our B20vtec could make easily over the 160kw mark if we strap on street tyres and reduce the camber from-ve 3.5 deg. But to simulate the load on the engine, we opted to dyno using semi slicks

[Slaz]

I could agree more with you Benny but it was strapped in using a much less favorable ramp rate or mode then some use ;) , was spinning 17inch wheels and tyres. 2.5 deg, on pump fuel with a cat fitted and a 38 degree day with a 3 hour tune, not bad considering.

The point i was trying to make was alot out there dont make the 150kw mark at all and they are easier said then done and often come at a cost much higher then some claim it can be done for, just look at your asking price for your engine considering the parts included, not so budget is it.

[GSi_PSi]

Leo whens your new engine going to be ready?.

In terms of intake manifold vs ITB's which makes the most torque and kw reading?.

[eg5civic]

itbs make better torque afaik

[mr_kentu]

id like to ask about exhaust system.
let say if i do b18c type r stock head internal with stock b20.
just plan to make 2.5inch b pipe. will it result in power lose if i go without resonator and without catalitic? just header go straight pipe to the muffler? or do i need to run resonator to avoid top end power lose?

[tinkerbell]

apart from being illegal on public roads, it will be fine...

resonators are simply to change the noise, nothing to do with power AFAIK...

[mr_kentu]

isnt it without reson the flow gonna be better?? higher flow means better performance??

[tinkerbell]

isnt it without reson the flow gonna be better??

please re-phrase your question... you mean the resonator improves flow?


higher flow means better performance??

yes, higher flow will usually never not be a contributor to better performance...

[GSi_PSi]

the resonator just reduces the sound. I had the resonator removed from my old 2.25 inch setup it was about the same loudness as a Buddyclub spec 2 catback..ie very f!#$% loud

[anster]

hi guys sorry to interrupt but i want some advice on the power output i'd gain from a b18c/b20b with cams and cam gears using the stock b16a2 box.

[tinkerbell]

hi guys sorry to interrupt but i want some advice on the power output i'd gain from a b18c/b20b with cams and cam gears using the stock b16a2 box.


hmmm, i'd reckon maybe between 97.2kw and 135.8kw - depending on tyres and camber settings...

[jords]

hmmm, i'd reckon maybe between 97.2kw and 135.8kw - depending on tyres and camber settings...

lol.....

[anster]

its running on 17 x 7 205's with stock cambers although it seems to look like theres more because of height from coilovers. it will be used with a cai, headers, catback and standalone ecu. just wnatto see what type of power it should produce before any plans really take place.

[tinkerbell]

its running on 17 x 7 205's with stock cambers although it seems to look like theres more because of height from coilovers. it will be used with a cai, headers, catback and standalone ecu. just wnatto see what type of power it should produce before any plans really take place.

well, that extra info means that we could estimate that it might put out between 105 and 115kw depending mostly on what cams, what intake manifold, what exhaust manifold and how it is tuned...

[anster]

i've got a b16a2 in the eg. so i might run either standard intake manifold or opt to upgrade to either skunk2 or edelbrock and as for headers im running 4-1 xforce and magnaflow exhaust. cai is custom to the foggie. um tyre wise i'vegota set of 16 x 7 which will be used instead of the 17s which are just temporary.

[kraiye]

lol
anster don't be so concerned about figures. seriously.
going from stock b16 to b20vtec w/ cams will be a hell of a step up and you're gonna feel it when u put your foot down!
saying you're gonna do 'cams' and I/H/E leaves the assumptions and estimations pretty open - at least specifying what sort of cams will make a big difference. there's more than one or two options you know?!

[Chr1s]

^ well said.

[bennjamin]

so when of any of these built b20s going to do the 1/4 mile and prove some performance figures ?

i would imagine the performance , to be somewhere inbetween a standard b18c7 and a standard k20 (in the same chassis)

[delsol9000rpms]

so when of any of these built b20s going to do the 1/4 mile and prove some performance figures ?

i would imagine the performance , to be somewhere inbetween a standard b18c7 and a standard k20 (in the same chassis)

i know, alot of talking and not enough walking

[bennjamin]

i know, alot of talking and not enough walking


well.......this topic started on PEAK power numbers and costs to achieve so.

But , like all things these arent entirely relevant as the gearbox takes over a cars performance more than anything.

I know for a fact , a mate had a b20 "setup" in his eg like 4 years ago and liked it alot. It was actually really fast. He sold it to a guy and it blew up soon after (from what i remember)

[MikeyG]

I wanted to take to WSID :( now I can't

[bennjamin]

I wanted to take to WSID :( now I can't


when jeff comes back i am pushing him to run it ! Just gotta do the rear brakes and its sexy time :)

[anster]

lol
anster don't be so concerned about figures. seriously.
going from stock b16 to b20vtec w/ cams will be a hell of a step up and you're gonna feel it when u put your foot down!
saying you're gonna do 'cams' and I/H/E leaves the assumptions and estimations pretty open - at least specifying what sort of cams will make a big difference. there's more than one or two options you know?!

im thinking toda cams and cam gears. im just curious of performance it should produce as this is the first time working on a honda. usually work on nissans and mazdas.

[kraiye]

all good. seems to be an avenue that hasn't been explored here a whole lot so i guess there's not too many people to comment.

[GSi_PSi]

anster a stock b20 should be around 120kw, with cams, intake manifold, throttle body upgraded maybe around 140kw..

as kraiye said b20's havent really been explored much in australia. there is one dude that made around 180kw out of his stock sleeve B20VTEC, and if your saying his dyno read high, he ran a 12.3 Second 1/4mile in his DC2 Chassis, for more info heres a link. ill see if i can find a video of his run.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2068126
Then after he sleeved a block to 86mm (golden eagle b20 block) stock 89mm b20 crank
+more mods and made 260hp and ran a 11.9 second 1/4 mile DC2 Chassis
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2282689

VIDEO of runs
12.4 stock sleeve run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe08IyHVYS8&feature=related
11.9 run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_ukJxHSRc0

[kraiye]

lol @ "EL PITUFO"

[GSi_PSi]

whats that mean lol

[MikeyG]

EL PITUFO means "the smurf" ... gsi psi you need to upgrade your spanish vocab with some 10+mana with regen

[Benson]

i know, alot of talking and not enough walking

12.9@108mph, 2.1 60ft B20vtec (V2 spec) @ 144kw EG chasis

13.4@103mph, 2.0 60ft B20vtec (V1 spec) @ 123kw DC2R chasis

13.6@103mph, 2.1 60ft B20vtec (V1 spec) @ unknown (road tuned) CRX chasis (fuel pump issue)

*Estimated time from last year BYP B20vtec @ 155kw's based on circuit data on straights line speeds and acceleration mid to low 12's (possible 11's with slicks) @ 112-115mph :)

[grumpy rooster]

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no way it would run an 11, even with slicks unless the car weighs around 800kg.

[Benson]

Why cant it run 11's? IF we have had gone down the drag set-up, i believe it would of ran some decent times. But Drag racing is not my thing.

[bennjamin]

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no way it would run an 11, even with slicks unless the car weighs around 800kg.

Good insight , from someone who actually knows from experience and knowledge :)

[bennjamin]

Why cant it run 11's? IF we have had gone down the drag set-up, i believe it would of ran some decent times. But Drag racing is not my thing.

If it's not your thing , get out of this thread then and stop gloating lol.
run it down the 1/4 and prove it's not just talk !

[Benson]

Im not gloating, someone said to post some times and i did. Then i followed up with estimated 1/4mile time if we have had ran it before we took it out of the car.

Only reason i go to the drags is to make sure its running the right MPH for the dyno output. Times are irrelevant for circuit racing

No need to prove anything, the B20vtec we had was quick and we know it was a quick motor. Both data and results on the track has certainly proved this.

Anyways, have you got anything to contribute to this thread?

[delsol9000rpms]

108mph isnt a 11 second pass...

[bennjamin]

108mph isnt a 11 second pass...




Interesting , my 103mph netted a 13.8.

Does another 5mph trap speed mean 11's ?

More b20 build results guys ! !

[Chr1s]

I'll have one very shortly

[ALLMTR996]

This thread has turned to poop I am going to play somewhere else :confused:

[Cooker]

What benny says is of relevance. Me myself don't really give 2 hoots about drag times as its circuit times that are of relevance. Drag times for a circuit car are just pure curiosity to me, it has no bearing on what it is as complete package. Take a 5sec 1/4mile top fuel drag car to Bathurst and see what time it does. Does the top fuel drag car owner really care what time he will do around Bathurst??? I think not.
Same with us circuit guys, who cares if we do a 16sec 1/4mile time, if at the circuit its quick, then its quick.
V8 supercars post some of the fastest lap times on aussie circuits, but at the drags they only do an 11's. Does it mean they are slow??? Hell no!!!!!
Circuit cars and drag cars are chalk and cheese.
People that live on drag times to see how fast a car is should pull their heads out their arse and get out to a track and see how fast their car is then.

But going back to benny talking about doing 11's, at the end of the day you can't speculate. Yes it might be able to, but its the same as saying that when you set the lap record at Eastern Creek you could of gone faster. As true as that might be, until you go faster its pointless speculating
The times/figures are what they are. 12.9 is a 12.9, not an 11. It might be able to do an 11 but until the time is done there is no point speculating.

B20 is very underated in OZ. A fully worked B20 should be able to crack an 11.
There are people in the States that run 11's with B20's so thats proof enough.

So at the end of the day, yes a B20 N/A can crack 11's, but the BYP B20 has not... as of yet (maybe soon?? hehe)

[MikeyG]

this thread has gone down the drain abit :(

I have a question i would like to ask about the exhaust setups.

I was told a 2.5 inch catback to exhaust would be a better package then a 3inch catback to exhaust.

just want to know why would that be.

[fatboyz39]

this thread has gone down the drain abit :(

I have a question i would like to ask about the exhaust setups.

I was told a 2.5 inch catback to exhaust would be a better package then a 3inch catback to exhaust.

just want to know why would that be.

We done a open header test on the dyno. Open header didnt gain much over the 2.5' exhaust. By placing 3' exhaust is just for pure noise on a b20.

[Chr1s]

Interesting topic.

I'll be starting with a 2.5" setup on mine, however with my 2.4L nissan that barely breathes as much as a b20vtec would, I noticed gains all over my powerband when I went from 2.5 -> 3". It could be placebo, I will try it again one day...

[ALLMTR996]

Interesting topic.

I'll be starting with a 2.5" setup on mine, however with my 2.4L nissan that barely breathes as much as a b20vtec would, I noticed gains all over my powerband when I went from 2.5 -> 3". It could be placebo, I will try it again one day...

Datsuns need all the help they can get and bigger is always better on them,BYP did alot of header and exhaust testing on there B20 and if 3" worked dont you think they would have run it,now K series is a different story.

[mocchi]

Datsuns need all the help they can get and bigger is always better on them,BYP did alot of header and exhaust testing on there B20 and if 3" worked dont you think they would have run it,now K series is a different story.

what is the difference? k20 & b20

[ALLMTR996]

what is the difference? k20 & b20

K engine's like very little pressure in the exhaust system, bore/stroke/rod ratio/cyl head flow/cam timing/header design all play a very important part in choosing the correct size exhaust system :honda:
whoops forgot GEARING is another very important factor but no one listens to Toda AU he has been saying that for years

[mocchi]

if you don't mind, can you please elaborate? i would like to know more.
thanks

[bennjamin]

Gearing is everything. The correct application can also increase or decrease your power output on a dyno too.

[eg5civic]

if you don't mind, can you please elaborate? i would like to know more.
thanks

I cant elaborate but just a general note alot of dc5r's run 3" exhaust afaik

[TODA AU]

http://in2themystic.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/smoke_and_mirrors_bw.gif

LOL... ;)

[eg5civic]

^^ wut?

[Cooker]

http://in2themystic.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/smoke_and_mirrors_bw.gif

LOL... ;)

Hahaha, true Adrian

[bennjamin]

come on guys lets keep it someone serious :)

[Slaz]

That would make a good logo for some people on here. :cool:

But ill put in a comment in just for Ben :p

My B loves the bigger system, but it runs a 3in and then into a twin system and i havnt tried a smaller system either as when i did the design, it all should have worked and it does, i was going to go 70mm but getting the piping wasnt easy, but saying that it also is pushing alot more revs then most of the B20 builds as the more it was revved, the more power it makes, but as Dave has said, the bore/stroke/comp/flow/cams/timing and header all come into this, as does its application and the powerband required from it.

As for gearing, well many seem to miss that and alot address it later on which is fair enough after they have just dropped alot on their build, but then wonder why for example some of the big K24 engines with massive power arnt much quicker down the 1/4 or through the traps. ;)

[grumpy rooster]

This is a very entertaining thread.

B20's are a waste of money. The old H22 is where its at. :p

(I'm just kidding people :wave:)

[EG5]

I'll have one very shortly

Nice one
Let me know when you heading out to WSID

[kraiye]

this thread has dies in the a**e!
guess we're all to busy building our B20's ;p

or busy looking for someone NOT trying to rip us off :(

[Chr1s]

I'm after some technical discussion but it seems no-one is willing to have a crack :(.

[u mad?]

who much does a b20vtec weigh? very similar to a b18c i'd assume?

[Chr1s]

I'd say abit lighter.

Less material in the bore, no girdle, no breather, although you really are comparing a few kg. I havn't looked into it though - never saw the point, could be wrong.

[Ear_]

quick question. anyone having gear crunches from 2nd to 3rd gear?. i know some b20 users have that problem. wondering if its normal or not or maybe it can be fixed?

[tinkerbell]

try here: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/search.php

or try here: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=83

[GSi_PSi]

lol gear crunches??, whats having a b20 have to do with gear crunching

[Ear_]

well thats what im trying to find out. because i know a few people with b20's have slight problem with shifting from 2nd to 3rd or anything to do with the 3rd gear there's a slight crunch.

well i don't think its the b20 problem then i guess then from your post above. maybe just a gearbox problem aye lol Thanks

[Chr1s]

Alot of B series gearboxes i've driven crunch 3rd, my old del sol does it sometimes too.

[Cooker]

Honda B series box is the B series weak point. They are weak as piss in standard form.

[GSi_PSi]

i beg to differ, they are quite strong, just the people that use and abuse them dont know how to maintain them properly. people running 10 second hondas using standard box

[zeni-tani]

@chr1s and todaau: what preperations apart from acid washing, apply multi angle valve job, replace valve stem seals and shaving would you need to be done, and what is the ideal PTV clearance on b18c2 head with stock cams.

I know the PTV will also depend on what piston is used however from experience what is safe and ideal?

[riruiz_88]

what is a PTV by the way?

what headers would you use, B18C or B16A? because i have heard B18C headers dont clear on B16A. so i thought it would be similar for the B20

[tinkerbell]

what headers would you use, B18C or B16A? because i have heard B18C headers dont clear on B16A. so i thought it would be similar for the B20

maybe you got it backwards... please check your information source.

[tinkerbell]

and what is the ideal PTV clearance on b18c2 head with stock cams.

approx. 50 thou

[zeni-tani]

what is a PTV by the way?

what headers would you use, B18C or B16A? because i have heard B18C headers dont clear on B16A. so i thought it would be similar for the B20
piston to valve clearance

[zeni-tani]

5 thou

both intake and exhaust cams? this is obviously measured when by locking the vtec in.

[tinkerbell]

both intake and exhaust cams? this is obviously measured when by locking the vtec in.

0.05 is a rough guide.

if you are a lot (like 0.02) inside this then you should reconsider the parts you are using...

clay it with the cam gears at max and min advance/retard too...

NB - you also should consider rod stretch too...

[zeni-tani]

0.05 is a rough guide.

if you are a lot (like 0.02) inside this then you should reconsider the parts you are using...

clay it with the cam gears at max and min advance/retard too...

NB - you also should consider rod stretch too...

Yes as expected i have done this before but not on a honda. Thats a good starting point, ill add in my notes i just purchased some RS machine pistons for it just going to be a simple build nothing to hectic.

I also never realised having a B18C2 head is a pain the ass to get manifold, i was planning on B16A manifold/OEM type R but stud pattern is diffrent, No i wish not to modify stuff to make it fit so the only choice i have i guess is a skunk or a blox.

[tinkerbell]

you should try it with the dual runner first - it might work well :)

[zeni-tani]

you should try it with the dual runner first - it might work well :)

The DC2 VTIR manifold?? I dont have a manifold to start with and having to work on 2 DC2 VTIR its a pain in the ass to work with.