ahh k...yup so i will need to push it to like 19-20 psi to get the same amount of power..as his on 16psi roughly.
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ahh k...yup so i will need to push it to like 19-20 psi to get the same amount of power..as his on 16psi roughly.
It also depends on how you drop compression, by pushing the head away using a thicker head gasket or keeping the head close to the deck and using lower comp pistons.
This is a very good point, a lot of people are assuming 10:1 comp is the same no matter how it is a achieved.... the fact is combustion chamber shape does play a big part in burn efficiency and detonation resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
So you guys think my JAP spec B16A2 10.4 Comp on 10psi will blowup :o
We'll see soon I guess :p
Should be fine....
Nahh fek a thinker head gasket. No chance i would go dropping my compression by doing it that way. I've got forged 9:1 pistons, i want reliablity and thats what ive paid for. :| hopefully.
But i guess for people trying to squeeze as much as they can out of there stock motors and dont mind if they blow it for a rebuild then i probably would chuck a thicker head gasket on it.
Mind you dropping your comp to 9:1 with a thicker head gasket will need to be fairly large and the gasket will possibly be unstable itself. Cant win :(
yeah but he's not looking at making that much power.
at about 180kws should be ok still
Now it will just depend on the tune
id be looking at running forgies at about 10:1 if i ever rebuild... i dont wana go lower then that as youll be loosing power before u gain it...
I mean correct in saying that but i personally think i havent loost that much. It deffinatly is different to stock compression while driving off boost but its not a huge difference in 9:1.Quote:
Originally Posted by VTi_b0i
stock comp + turbo:thumbsup:
no difference in performance than standard model off boost yet the addition/power of extra air when it comes on boost... great streetability!
great streetability - bad stablitliy
bad stability? in what way do you mean?
i wont get into this anymore cos i think i've already said it in this thread before...
its great to have high comp and boost aswell but something will give eventually and it did for me motor blew after 6 months of a high comp boost setup at 7psi. Had a drag with this R32 and i was making him eat my vtec but then bamm it gave way and i needed a full rebuild.
hmmm I plan to run 6-7psi with 10:1 compression on my weak sleeved B20
Man I got'a say I disagree with this...Quote:
Originally Posted by FastFwd
There’s a lot of boosted Stock B16’s getting round without problems and I hope I’m one of them..
Adrian from TODA who dose my tuning doesn’t seem to think I’ll have any problems and he also said I’d blow my boosted D16 and he was right lol
I think if you have a superb build and a smaller turbo then it could run upto a year with no probs...
I think the main factor with mine was i had a t04e which was solid boost from 4500-9000+ rpm and that night i was giving it hurt shifting around 8400 and that solid boost prolly not a great combo.....
where a gt28 etc on a high comp build will die out around 6000-7000rpm soo it will make it a little safer to push to higher rpms etc.
I think thats really the only thing that could have caused my issue.
I'm not saying its not possible...im just saying everyone knows theres greater risks in high comp turbo setups. and thats why i said "great streetability - bad stablitliy".
Since ive gone lower comp i've trashed the crap out of my car and ive never had one thing happen.
hhmm boost fade-off is bad for motors, well that's my understanding..
My EBC holds boost to red line no matter what.
Smooth boost delivery is better, someone correct me if I'm wrong
what Fastfwd is saying is true.
With a high comp motor there is less margin for error.
Low comp motors have a larger margin for error, thus greater reliability.
All comes down to how well the motor has been tuned & how well its been taken care of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limbo
Yep most defiantly....
That’s wasn’t really my point as we all know low comp motors are safer for boost… that’s just a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limbo
My point was boosting a stock B16 shouldn’t be a problem… for longevity
I ran my stock D16 on 11psi for close to two years redlining all day every day before she blow… and D16 con rods are like little twigs.
Blowing a B16 on only 7psi sounds strange to me as most people consider 10psi on a stock B16’s as safe.
Were they stock unopened B16s that blow at 7psi FastFwd?
Yeh mine was stock...engine had low k's also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
Remember a motor doesnt have to break from the rods snapping. The usual case is the crank bearings failing causing a mess of the pistons hitting the head and the bearings shredding the crank shaft.
bugger!Quote:
Originally Posted by FastFwd
depends on the turbo being used also.
a TD04e is actually very large, so 7psi is actually more than 10PSI on a T28.
since most people use a T28, they naturally say 10PSI is fine......
abit of oversimplification
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limbo
Yeah i've been trying to find a reason why my motor blew that night and so far thats what ive come to also. My t04e is a massive turbo, very laggy but when boost came on it was solid. So solid in fact that it might have bee just to much to handle...where others have run gt28 setups all day long and have not had a problem.
I overcompensated :( ahh oh well it was a long time ago and ive learnt from it. :) just cant wait till im hitting 20psi in a couple weeks. I've never heard a honda spool over 10psi.
Yeah 20psi going to be fully sick :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by FastFwd
wheel spin galore my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
lol
i can break traction in 4th on cold days/nights, on 16psi.
on toyo t1s tyres.
that's a b18 though. still.
quite useless.
hahaha.
im running stretched 235's on the front. I can put 265 semi slicks if needed but i wont be running 20psi daily drive no chance...will be around 10
i ran 20+ psi on my setup :P
Fstfwd.
It sounds like your motor failed from either 2 situations either..
A - bad tuning.. premature ignition
B - your tuning was fine but simply the internals could not handel the power you were producing (due to running a large turbo even at low boost)
7psi of boost is 7psi of boost.. but weather you are makeing 150whp or 300whp.. thats what can break your motor.
Just off topic.. i know D16s standard rods are only good for 200whp. Eg car a could run a T25 on 7psi and make 150whp tuned mildly... and another identical car could run a
Gt35R on 7psi and make 250whp tuned mildly.. and Boom! throw a rod out the block (similar to lukezen)
Anyway way! back on topic.
I vote
Lower CR = more boost & more timing = and thats the shit that makes real power
Either Thicker head gasket or low compression pistions (dished)
again its a choice of what you want.
But more power generally lower compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
Yeah the tune was fine and the engine only had like 40-50 thou on it...twas fairly virgin. Could be a range of things that could of caused the issue. I just think it was a combination of a t04e with solid boost and high rpm and possibly slight premature ignition and thats all it needs really and things can all go south very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
But i dont regret doing 9:1 compression now at all. Once i have it fully boosted to 20psi and i hear it wind up im seriously going to jizz in my pants "like at the end of sixth sence was bruice willis was dead, i Jizzed in my pants"
dude howcome earlier in the thread you said the engine had 30k on it then here you said 40k-50k and in another thread its 60k?
not stirring or anything just thouhgt it was a bit odd.
i see fastfwd point and understand from his experience where he is coming from..........
but like i have said before.................there is nothing better than driving ur stock internal high comp honda all day every day.....and once u open the throttle and reach 4000-4500rpm............ur on boost and the gate is screaming away...........
my setup has been going strong for almost a year now, and it gets driven daily............
no compromise on drivability for daily duties with high comp off boost, and the thrill, exciting pull when on boost (7.5psi) and the stock high comp b18cr.......
like many people have said, an engine can fail at any given time for a number of reasons.............it could be tune, it could be oil pressure, it could be 'its time is up'
in ur case fastfwd, i think it was badluck, as if it was tune, im pretty sure it would have shit itself a lot earlier than 6 months down the track...............
could even be a bad batch of fuel......
Yeah tru tru but we all learn from our experiences and im just sharing/venting mine. Just chatting with this guy on another thread and he was running 16psi on stock internals/compression and i couldnt believe him and still dont really but he seams to have this other guy backing him.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...=111075&page=8
IEVAQ8 you just commented on it also, i wasnt saying its not possible to make that power on a stock motor i was saying that its not possible to be pushing 16psi on a stock motor with stock compression.
fairly insain if its tru.
I too have heard of people running 15psi on stock internals hence why I think 10psi would be completely safeQuote:
Originally Posted by FastFwd
Thats crazy hey...awesome!
Of course it is true. You can run 20psi and more on a stock motor if you want. You'll have awsome power for a whole 5 seconds flat out. Or you can run 15 psi for 20 seconds flat out. Or 8 psi flat our for a minute. (made up figures)Quote:
Originally Posted by FastFwd
Its not the Psi that kills a motor its 'how you drive it' and how its tuned. If your running high boost on the street, giving it a spurt here and there so often, you'll never have any problems. If your going to be flat out on the track its gonna blow eventually. That goes for any motor, if your thermal management is not up to scratch it will eventually blow. As always its a lot of things to consider, not Psi.
Yeh in the thread i said this "anyone can get a stock b series with stock compression and boost it upto 16psi for 2 minutes on one dyno run and cross your fingers that nothing gives way just so you can get a dyno sheet that has 268kw"Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
it just seams like there dyno junkies.
geez, same thing said a million diff ways, 8 pages later...
Anyway, one thing that was touched on was the EBC, size of the turbo, those IMO are things to look at, and to those running past 14PSI - Did yall use aftermarket ECU's?
Dude we are all using aftermarket ECU's its the going way!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
Nah man, u might find people using stock ECU and chip to comepnsate or maybe a piggy back - most dont have the dosh for full ECU i.e. Motec Haltech Autronic
Ok first of all thats usually the case in the US. Alot of people use Apexi Vafc Piggy back ECU's and run there cars upto 7psi or so. But here in the Aus this is not how its generally done. Motec/heltech/autronic's are something that is rarely seen here also. Maybe haltech but alot of guys here run Hondata or other Ecu's like Apexi power FC, thats what im running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
yeah its called the 'hack', not really recommended if your running decent power. That's the cheap & nasty way. If your thinking that, don't even bother, its going to be a headache in the long run
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
Yeah I'm running Hondata
Well this Hack is doing well in my car and many others like it - Apexi isnt a full ECU - thats jus a piggy back - i odntknow about a Hondata though - anyone care to explain if its a full ECU or just a piggyback
Hondate is a full ECU and it allows complete access to Honda’s real maps and so on… close to the best you can getQuote:
Originally Posted by Blue
Coze its the standard ECU moded
Apexi PFC is a full ECU.
Difference is a piggyback only intercepts signals & gives different readings. Usually has limited points. When it gets to big setups & features the piggyback is crap
A full ECU is able to be fully programable with all fuel, igntition, timing etc....
the SAFC etc you are talking about only give small tuning parameters.... i belive its every 500rpm or so, and they only allow tuning off the a/f ratio buy hacking in and tricking the factory computer.
a full ecu like above mentioned have tuning parameters down to every (subjective between different ecu's) 50rpm point or even less and allow full ajustment of a/f ratios and ignition timing at every point across the rpm range these are whats called stand alone although these can be run in a piggy back style arrangement where they factory ecu controlls creture comfort accessorys and ide cold start etc but the other ecu controlls all the engine functions and sensors.
as for motor blowing if you reach the breaking point of an engine component then dosent matter how good the tune is then it will fail eventually for example a D series head bottom end will take large amounts of boost but the connecting rods only withstand about 200-220 hp and they will fail at this point ..... hey luke :P
FastFwd that 268kw on 16psi was did on race fuel.
Definately believable.
Check the first post on this page.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...=111075&page=8
As ive said before i believe that someone can make 268kw on a stock block but running 16psi for anything but a "2 minute cross your fingures hope nothing die's Dyno run" is unbelievable. it would last less than 5 mins on a track.Quote:
Originally Posted by delsol9000rpms
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookingforboost
lol cmon mate i made thate point 2 pages back :P
to lazy to read that far back :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sexc86
story of this thread...
if its better for a high comp/low boost or low comp/high boostQuote:
Originally Posted by Blue
it was an application towards my motor, to make the most of my motor, or any motor in that app....
so the thread was bought out there...into what degree is high comp???
my comment more so was that ppl just repeat - cus theyre too lazy to read "that far back"
It's probably worth mentioning what CR OEM turbo cars run for reference. I know that VAG 1.8T 20v engines ran 9:1 or 9.5:1 from the factory depending on what car it was going in but, that would obviously be the OEM compromise on a mass produced turbo engine between reliability and drivability.
These engines a capable of reasonable power on std internals 400bhp+
I've got 1988 Renault 5 GT Turbo running a std carb blow through set up. The engine design is getting on for 50 yrs old now and that runs a std CR of 7.9:1 on it's 8v OHV non crossflow head.
The difference between the VAG engine and my old skool Renault lump is the advances in EFI technology and it's control, predominantly, ignition timing. The obvious other differences in head design have little to with a reliable CR.
Food for thought;)
bringing old thread back
what fuel you guys running???
also is greddy ultimate e-mannager considered a piggy?
BP 98 hereQuote:
Originally Posted by EK4R
Yes ultimate e-mannager is a piggy back 100%
bp ultimate ftw.
and s300 all the way
Mobil 8000Quote:
Originally Posted by IEVAQ8
or no good?
BP ultimate and synergy 8000 both good fuelsQuote:
Originally Posted by WATAJK
was using shell before in the dc5 which wasn't turbo'ed
seemed ok. but dont want to run a batch of bad oil. think il stick to BP like before.
more comp less boost = not much power potential
less comp more boost = good power
very low comp, extreme boost = will give insane power
the amount of power your engine makes is limited to its flow characteristics and how much it can take before pinging,
higher compression will result in a more responsive and fuel efficient engine
but boost is also limited to how much fuel you dump into the engine
1 of hondas F1 engines has 6:1 compression with something like 60psi to make over 700hp from a 1.5L
not sure where ur theory comes from, czn u back it up???............excluding the F1 stuff that has millions of dollars spent on research and developement???Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
thank god, there the only 2 ill use :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeForce
im not sure either, do some research and if you can proove it wrong pls post :):honda:Quote:
Originally Posted by IEVAQ8
to get past this problem there is a way to cheat out compression, volvo and a few other manufacturers are duing this, volvos system incorporates a variable height deck, than can lift the head along with the sleeves to increase/decrease compression
That was with old 80's technology.......Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
Now, higher compression, more responsiveness, better reliabilty you'll acheive the same figure. So therefore, more compression the less boost you need to run to acheive the same figure.
Also, an engine like that designed purely for racing application would be useless on the street
exactly! i dont know about anyone else but id much rather make for instance 200kw atw on say 7psi then the same figure on like 15psi? its a no brainer... my compression is at 11.4-1 only running 7.5psi daily and occasionally 9psi and its great.Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO01
the best proof i can give u is in my own ITR.............Quote:
Originally Posted by crx_boy7
stock b18c7 with a gt30, full race mani, 7.5psi making a healthy and very respectful 239.8kw daily driven, and after a whole year of daily driving, 3or 4 1/4mile drag nights/days and plenty of street thrashing/racing, it still made a healthy 240.5kw on the same dyno as it was tuned.........
it made it a very responsive and very fun to drive, and due to the high stock compression, it could be driven as if it was na under 4500rpm on light throttle and no one would know the difference.........
I think that's also a very good example of just how difference buying quality parts and planning your intended power out-put can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by IEVAQ8
Man I can't believe some A-hole sole your car!
high comp is good, but the reason why people go lower comp is so they can run more boost and make more power reliabily without race fuel.
Reason is our fuel is not up to scratch. If you could get consistent race fuel all the time, a high comp motor with high boost is fine. The low comp motors compensate for the occasional crap fuel without killing the motor completely.
thanks luke........Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukezen27
and i still sook about it not being here in my posetion in my garage to be taken for a drive when ever i want.............. it sucks hard............
This is a little Off topic. But seriously i cant believe i havnt seen anyone on here run one.
Water / Meth injection kit. I believe increases the fuels octane by up to 10 points. So combine water meth injection with 98 octane is like running on race fuel .. Also drastically cools intake temperatures. Only down side is its something you have to refill.
Good to setup with your boost controller if you want to go to 30psi though !
I've seen people say bye bye to their intercooler setup with h20/meth injection.
how so?
ok so no one has proven me wrong, i had a friend back mabe 10 years with a b18, typrR head rand 350kw on 9:1 cr,, think it was a gt35 also theres another angle to it, you can run more boost on exactly the same engine by adding extra fuel and retarding the timing, obviously,
anyway, idk why you are quoting me if yur not saying im wrong, you can quote yur dyno figures without posting my name at the top yu know, and yes that engine is old ect, not sure why that was mentioned either
water injection works great , the downside is , the engine becomes a grenade if yur water runs dry or the thing malfunctions
the best way to take advantage of this system is directly inject it into the engine, next to injectors, this method cools the pistons directly, (as they are the hottest part of the intake run, it will take away the most temperature here), as well as allowing you to run alot leaner, and saving you fuel while at the same time adding power, and yess somehow it can damage intercoolers, as well as build up water at the base of them, so while it seems like a great place to place it, its not, after the intercooler is the optimal place for a single nozzle
and i realise someone will say yur valves rust ect, while this isnt a major problem with turbo ect, as the intake is full of oil half the time, there called stailes steel valves..