NEW 2009 Euro Luxury Auto Pinging

[onnos]

I want to get one thing straight. My complaint has been in regard to excessive engine knock (pinging) since the ping fix was implemented. I have referred to this as "engine pinged it's head off out of the dealership". Instinctive, I knew that the ping fix had been botched. My battle has been to try and get the dealer to rectify this issue. Eventually, the pinging settled down (mostly gone). However, there was a certain roughness in addition to the mild PCS which left me with the sense that all was not well. This problem has now been resolved.

Below is an extract from the Haltech Interceptor manual:
Knock Control
Many factory ECUs employ knock control to prevent engine damage due to pinging. Generally the factory ECU will monitor pinging using the knock sensor and retard ignition timing to get rid of it. The problem with this for the Haltech Interceptor is that in the quest for more power, a tuner may advance the ignition timing, but this may cause pinging. The factory ECU then
retards the timing to get rid of the pinging, and the result is that the power curve becomes inconsistent and makes no more power. Haltech recommends that before applying advance, the tuner should retard the ignition timing to see if power is lost. If power is lost, then the advance can be gradually added until max power is reached. It is recommended that the tuner run the minimum advance that achieves the performance requirements. Haltech has found on several cars that maximum power was achieved with ignition retarded from the factory ignition curves, as the factory ECU was tuned to run on the verge of knock control all the time. Therefore more power was made by pulling the ignition advance back to a level that would prevent knock control operation and still make good power.

Now, let's look at the last two sentences carefully, in respect to the K24Z engine:
If the factory ECU is tuned to run on the verge of knock control all the time, this is probably done as a compromise between obtaining maximum power and maximum fuel economy. If the Ignition timing is retarded further, the pinging may be eliminated at the expense of power loss.

Any comments? Please feel free to add to this analysis.

what it sounds like haltech are refering to here is japanese imports with ecus factory tuned to run on the higher octane petrol available in japan.taking a japanese ecu run it on a lower octane fuel than it was setup to run on and cranking more timing is a recipe for detonation.australian/nz new cars usually come with the ecu setup for our lower octane fuel.a motor makes maximun power on the thresh hold of detonation. once u start detonating u are losing power and doing damage. if the reflash took timing out which stopped the detonation then it should run/ pull harder(unless they pulled a whole lot of timing out) i would put it on a dyno/wide band and check air fuel ratios before and after reflash, to see if they have just cranked more fuel in to help prevent detonation. which could see a loss in power as u made the air fuel ratios to rich for optimum power but to try and prevent detonation.

[Irving]

what it sounds like haltech are refering to here is japanese imports with ecus factory tuned to run on the higher octane petrol available in japan.taking a japanese ecu run it on a lower octane fuel than it was setup to run on and cranking more timing is a recipe for detonation.australian/nz new cars usually come with the ecu setup for our lower octane fuel.a motor makes maximun power on the thresh hold of detonation. once u start detonating u are losing power and doing damage. if the reflash took timing out which stopped the detonation then it should run/ pull harder(unless they pulled a whole lot of timing out) i would put it on a dyno/wide band and check air fuel ratios before and after reflash, to see if they have just cranked more fuel in to help prevent detonation. which could see a loss in power as u made the air fuel ratios to rich for optimum power but to try and prevent detonation.

Onnos, I agree and thanks for your comments on this issue.

The first point that I would like to reiterate is that my car did not ping badly BEFORE THE PING FIX (it was very mild pinging at Hwy speeds at 2200rpm). After the ping fix it pinged it’s head off as the upgrade was botched by the dealership. This has been my main complaint.

The second point is that the car now pulls harder and the vtec is more pronounced. For a 4cyl, 4dr sedan, this thing really moves. Very impressive. So it looks like they increased the retard threshold a little but not to the point of giving up power. However, there is still mild PCS (post combustion sound) in the 3400 to 4000 rpm range. This happens under moderate acceleration on mild inclines. Drive the same hill aggressively and there is no PCS. So what you say makes perfect sense as the ECU compensates for the perceived increased load by adjusting the mixture.
I believe that one needs excellent hearing to pick up the PCS from the engine. If the fan is set on 4 or more, or if the radio is on or the window is down, you will not hear it. You need to listen for it. Also, Automatics are now less susceptible to this PCS due to the Auto SW signaling the EMC when an increased load is detected.
I can’t say that this sound now qualifies as pinging and have to agree with Honda that it is PCS.

The third point is that some fuels perform better and are less prone to pinging. Has anyone tried 100 octane from United? I know it has 10% Ethanol which makes me reluctant to try it. It would be interesting to check if this has an impact on the PCS. The point being that high octane fuels are less prone to detonation under compression.

[nickxau]

Irving I'm not sure if I'm reading your post correctly but after your post earlier on saying the problem is solved, you're now saying that there still is a "rattling" noise coming from your car but you're not classifying it as "pinging" anymore but "post combustion sound"?

[Irving]

I don't believe that I used the word "rattling"....
Pinging can be pre or post combustion detonation. It also has a metallic sound similar to marbles rolling. What I have is somewhat different to this "pinging" and have to agree with Honda Australia that this is "mild PCS".

[nickxau]

Yeh, I didn't think you used that term either but due to the lack of a better word I used it with inverted commas .

The reason why I'm trying to clarify is coz I've still got a mild - "sound" shall we say? that I can hear from time to time. I was wondering if mine is a PCS or still a pinging sound. Coz from the sounds of buddah51au's outcome of his fix which was applied, it seems to me that he's got NO SOUND whatsoever, be it pinging, rattling, mild pinging or PCS etc coming from the engine.

buddah51au id you're still following this thread can you please confirm that this is the case?

[buddah51au]

Nickxau, I have had no pinging or PCS problems since the update was applied just over 10,000km ago. The car is running perfect although it has had very little use over the last 2 months as it is no longer a daily driver - 600km in last 2 months.

[Irving]

Irving, I went to my dealership today and sadly they can do nothing else from me. They have advised of all the cars they have applied the fix to all still have a similar minor pinging issues as per my vehicle. 30 in total and only 3 complaints.

This damn thing is a funny issue.... Type and even the batch of petrol??? Atmospheric conditions such as air pressure and humidity??? and air temperature can all be factors.

Also, Automatics should be less prone to this issue as adviced by my mechanic...

[nzitr]

I want to get one thing straight. My complaint has been in regard to excessive engine knock (pinging) since the ping fix was implemented. I have referred to this as "engine pinged it's head off out of the dealership". Instinctive, I knew that the ping fix had been botched. My battle has been to try and get the dealer to rectify this issue. Eventually, the pinging settled down (mostly gone). However, there was a certain roughness in addition to the mild PCS which left me with the sense that all was not well. This problem has now been resolved.

Can you elaborate re the roughness and the mild PCS please.. I'm wondering if my car was botched too!

[limleong]

Can you elaborate re the roughness and the mild PCS please.. I'm wondering if my car was botched too!

NZITR,

I have a NZ Spec CW2 (Tourer Version of CU2) and my wife can hear the pinging when going uphill. Did you have your ECU re-program and Knock Sensor replace by Honda NZ.

I am wondering what is Honda NZ official position on the "pinging" issue as it sounds like all 08, 09 and even some 10 models have the same issue. A majority probably didn't hear or can't re-cognise the "ping" noise.

Thanks.

[89superstage]

Hi Limleong,
I've posed the question to Honda NZ and am awaiting a call back now....

Nzitr, did you take this issue to Honda NZ already?

thanks,
Des

[nzitr]

Hi Limleong,
I've posed the question to Honda NZ and am awaiting a call back now....

Nzitr, did you take this issue to Honda NZ already?

thanks,
Des

My car had the fix done late last year after I complained to my sales person. It was done without any questions or tests at Newmarket Honda. It still isn't what I would call perfect so I am still contemplating my next move. Perhaps I am being too demanding!

[limleong]

My car had the fix done late last year after I complained to my sales person. It was done without any questions or tests at Newmarket Honda. It still isn't what I would call perfect so I am still contemplating my next move. Perhaps I am being too demanding!

Hi NZITR,

Do you know what exactly did Honda New Market did ie. did they simply re-flash the ECU or did they flash the ECU and replace the knock sensor as well?

I have read from various forums (OZHONDA and Acurazine) that simply flashing the ECU will not cure the problem. The cure has to be a ECU re-flash and replacement of knock sensor. This is the reason that I am holding off. A half cure might be worse than no cure